TargetTalk

Hi folks, i'm shooting izh-46m from 18 months and now need advice.
Best izh-46m quality is that is the cheapest match-gun on the market, but also know that is too much heavy, nose heavy, and bad grip.
I trained a lot, but i can score on competition from 550 to 560, on training i can do a few better sometimes (rarely) 560-565.
I personalized grip, and train 3 times a week.
It take me a lot of effort to reach this point and now i'm floating around 560, and is very depressing not to be able to smash 570 wall not even on training session. I try changing sight, trigger setting, my position, working different on training aspects, but the score not goes up.

I'm very sad because of this stagnation, and I'm thinking to stop definitively to the end of the year, because is too much effort only to be constant on this result, and is extremely wearing away.

What do you think about?
Is wrong changing gun to search points? the only reason i'll think to change is if i can make better score.
Now i'm a lot disappointed; betting a lot of money on a new gun to remain with a lot of effort on the same level, is not a good perspective: so i'm evaluating if stop, if increase effort with izzy, or make a sacrifice buying another gun, and try to train another year.

The new pistol i'm look about are pardini k2s, and benelli kite, because they are the cheapest one.
Any advice?
Thank you very much!
Best regards,
LukeP.

Luke:

"I feel your pain!" My $0.02 for what it's worth:

1. The cost of an inexpensive gun is always way more than the price of the best equipment*

2. While the "new gun effect" has been somewhat well documented, the effect is temporary at best

3. While it is true the Izzy has some definite limitations, the other guns you mentioned have equal or greater limitations so what would you truly be gaining?

4. Yes, the Izzy may be holding you back- you could shoot in the 580s with the Izzy, but it would be a lot harder than shooting in the 580s with a Steyr or Morini (for example)

5. Yes, the answer is always TRAIN MORE however, the results you get from the same amount of training effort on a piece of inferior equipment will always be less than the same effort on a piece of superior equipment

Our host has a great motto on his website: "Quality Has No Regrets."

Steve Swartz

*[When I first got into competitive shooting (metallic silhouette) I purchased a $300 rifle . . . then a $600 rifle . . . then a $1,300 rifle. Total cost of dicking around: $2,200. Total cost of "doing it right the first time" would have been $1,100; the cost of the Walther had I bought it in the first place! Much more importantly- I wasted a year screwing around with inferior equipment and developed some bad habits in the process.]

Steve Swartz wrote: Our host has a great motto on his website: "Quality Has No Regrets."

Or, as they say in woodworking, "Buy the best and only cry once!"

A Better pistol won't make you a better shooter, but it will allow you to become a better shooter much more easily.

Luke,
What are your goals? If your goal is to move up to 570-580 and beyond to compete in the big matches, then you are going to have to buy a top of the line AP - Steyr, Morini, FWB,...
On the other hand if your goal is to shoot as well as you can, enjoy the sport, and compete at the club and local level, and money is an issue, then stay with the Izzy. As Russ has pointed out in an earlier discussion, the pistol is capable of scores of 570 and better.

Hope this helps,
Fred

Fred Mannis wrote:Luke,
What are your goals? If your goal is to move up to 570-580 and beyond to compete in the big matches, then you are going to have to buy a top of the line AP - Steyr, Morini, FWB,...

I resolve to continue training, at least until half september, when there is a big match on my range. I'll try train more fundamentals and technique, and will forget checking points. If the match goes on satisfactory way, and if i have the money, i've resolved to buy a new gun.
I found that a adjustable axis grip is needed for me, because i'm very tall, and with izzy i must push the wrist up to align sight.
Top class are Morini 162MI, Steyr LP10, and Feinwerkbau P44.
Probably will be a morini, because i know a shooter is selling it few used-like new, but i have to check grip. Alternativerly best wish is a P44.
Thank you.
Best regards,
LukeP.

P.S. Last price alternatively is a Kite.

LukeP wrote:

Fred Mannis wrote:Luke,
What are your goals? If your goal is to move up to 570-580 and beyond to compete in the big matches, then you are going to have to buy a top of the line AP - Steyr, Morini, FWB,...

I resolve to continue training, at least until half september, when there is a big match on my range. I'll try train more fundamentals and technique, and will forget checking points. If the match goes on satisfactory way, and if i have the money, i've resolved to buy a new gun.
I found that a adjustable axis grip is needed for me, because i'm very tall, and with izzy i must push the wrist up to align sight.
Top class are Morini 162MI, Steyr LP10, and Feinwerkbau P44.
Probably will be a morini, because i know a shooter is selling it few used-like new, but i have to check grip. Alternativerly best wish is a P44.
Thank you.
Best regards,
LukeP.

P.S. Last price alternatively is a Kite.

The Morini is nice but remember the grip is not as adjustable as either the lp10, P44 or Walther 300XT, if thats important to you.

I have a kite, great pistol, but the grip is also not adjustable.

Also it has a very raked grip, so it may solve your problem of having to push the wrist up.

The FWB, Morini, and Steyr are almost double the price of the Kite, Are they that much better?

Richard H wrote:

LukeP wrote:

Fred Mannis wrote:Luke,
What are your goals? If your goal is to move up to 570-580 and beyond to compete in the big matches, then you are going to have to buy a top of the line AP - Steyr, Morini, FWB,...

I resolve to continue training, at least until half september, when there is a big match on my range. I'll try train more fundamentals and technique, and will forget checking points. If the match goes on satisfactory way, and if i have the money, i've resolved to buy a new gun.
I found that a adjustable axis grip is needed for me, because i'm very tall, and with izzy i must push the wrist up to align sight.
Top class are Morini 162MI, Steyr LP10, and Feinwerkbau P44.
Probably will be a morini, because i know a shooter is selling it few used-like new, but i have to check grip. Alternativerly best wish is a P44.
Thank you.
Best regards,
LukeP.

P.S. Last price alternatively is a Kite.

The Morini is nice but remember the grip is not as adjustable as either the lp10, P44 or Walther 300XT, if thats important to you.

The Anschutz LP@ has the same frame as the LP10 with same adjustements/quality but being less famous/known as the LP10 can sometimes be found at a lower price.

James wrote:I have a kite, great pistol, but the grip is also not adjustable.

Also it has a very raked grip, so it may solve your problem of having to push the wrist up.

The FWB, Morini, and Steyr are almost double the price of the Kite, are they that much better?

Only you can answer that question. Personally I think they are that much better (quality, fit, function, and support), but thats just my own personal opinion and it in no way indicates that the Kite is not good.

Richard H wrote:

James wrote:I have a kite, great pistol, but the grip is also not adjustable.
Also it has a very raked grip, so it may solve your problem of having to push the wrist up.
The FWB, Morini, and Steyr are almost double the price of the Kite, are they that much better?

Kite IMHO is a very good pistol, but Benelli have one secrets that is a little confusing: Benelli' customer care have a particular trigger, and particular compensator that they give to shooter SuperA grade (is the high competitor class on italy, and entering average score is 575). It can be good thing: they offer free update to "good buyer-shooter"; alternatively is like say standard ones (trigger and compensator) are not the best.

LukeP wrote:

Richard H wrote:

James wrote:I have a kite, great pistol, but the grip is also not adjustable.
Also it has a very raked grip, so it may solve your problem of having to push the wrist up.
The FWB, Morini, and Steyr are almost double the price of the Kite, are they that much better?

Kite IMHO is a very good pistol, but Benelli have one secrets that is a little confusing: Benelli' customer care have a particular trigger, and particular compensator that they give to shooter SuperA grade (is the high competitor class on italy, and entering average score is 575). It can be good thing: they offer free update to "good buyer-shooter"; alternatively is like say standard ones (trigger and compensator) are not the best.

I'd agree that seems a little strange if I pay my money I want the quality.

Do they charge extra for the better trigger? If you pay the extra do they sell it to you?

jipe wrote: The Morini is nice but remember the grip is not as adjustable as either the lp10, P44 or Walther 300XT, if thats important to you.

The Anschutz LP@ has the same frame as the LP10 with same adjustements/quality but being less famous/known as the LP10 can sometimes be found at a lower price.[/quote]

Morini 162MI have grip axis adjustable.
Price of top brand are similar in Italy:
Steyr LP10 ... 1400€,
Anshutz LP@ ... 1300€,
Morini162MI ... 1100€,
Feinwerkbau P44 ... 1400€,
..
... Pardini K2s Air ... 950€,
.... Benelli Kite ... 800€.

The options are illimitated.

I really think stop, because too much time, effort, and money are needed to continue. I hope to close well on September match, and then go away.
Thank you very much, i appreciate all your advice, and i'll continue evaluating possibilities.
Best regards,
Luke.

Richard H wrote: Do they charge extra for the better trigger? If you pay the extra do they sell it to you?

No, they offer to update it free of charge, after you have registered high score on regional-national matches. Is completely free and they not give you if you are not selected by high score.
The compensator looks like Francesco Bruno and Taniu Kiriakov are using on their pistols. There is an interview on Italian Magazine to this Benelli's shooters: Bruno said that the gun is very good.... bla bla bla... and that Benelli give him a compensator more suitable for his taste; Taniu said that he ask Benelli to apply some change to trigger, and now he have a trigger more suitable for his taste.... So i think that Benelli have developed this new elements after the collaboration with their top shooters, and they offer this upgrade free to the "normal buyer", only if they can make high score.

Before, between first and second series production, i know that they offer to last buyer of first series pistols, to upgrade free with drilled barrel and other changes, all for free. I think it's the company guideline to support theyr customers in the best way. Don't forger that Benelli is a property of Beretta's group, so they have a lot of money to sponsorize and support new products.
Bye.

LukeP wrote: Morini 162MI have grip axis adjustable.
Price of top brand are similar in Italy:
Steyr LP10 ... 1400€,
Anshutz LP@ ... 1300€,
Morini162MI ... 1100€,
Feinwerkbau P44 ... 1400€,
..
... Pardini K2s Air ... 950€,
.... Benelli Kite ... 800€.

Your prices are exagerated:
- Steyr LP10 cost less than 1100€: http://www.schiesssport-buinger.de/esho ... ts1253.htm
- Anschutz LP @ can be found for less than 1000€: http://www.schiess-sport-breuberg.de/

jipe wrote: Your prices are exagerated:
- Steyr LP10 cost less than 1100€: http://www.schiesssport-buinger.de/esho ... ts1253.htm
- Anschutz LP @ can be found for less than 1000€: http://www.schiess-sport-breuberg.de/

Sorry sir, but i come from italy, not from germany.
Take a look to italian steyr dealer, downlod pdf of steyr, morini,anshutz,
http://www.bersagliomobile.com/catalogo.html
at their listin price you can discount something like 10% more or less.

Here italian dealer for feinwerkbau:
http://lnx.use3.net/hosts/dominoguns/in ... category=1
down on the page: 1450€ standard price .... 1390€ special offer... ;(
Thank you.
Best regards,
LukeP.

You mentioned having to bend the wrist down to align your sights . I am unwilling to tell you what to do because that would make me responsible for your outcome and I really believe each shooter is responsible for that . I'll let you know what my approach would be. First I demand the following before I will attempt to train with a pistol. " When I take my normal shooting grip ,extend to the target ,I want to see perfectly alligned sights as soon as the pistol reaches the aiming area on the target'" If this can be fixed by modifing the grips I am willing to do that . If it cannot ,I find a gun that allows me to accomplish that ,and apply pressure to the trigger that does not disturd sight allignment. If you have intentions of success and are willing to pursue those goals I hope you can figure out the proper course of action. Good Shooting Bill Horton

LukeP wrote:

jipe wrote: Your prices are exagerated:
- Steyr LP10 cost less than 1100€: http://www.schiesssport-buinger.de/esho ... ts1253.htm
- Anschutz LP @ can be found for less than 1000€: http://www.schiess-sport-breuberg.de/

Sorry sir, but i come from italy, not from germany.
Take a look to italian steyr dealer, downlod pdf of steyr, morini,anshutz,
http://www.bersagliomobile.com/catalogo.html
at their listin price you can discount something like 10% more or less.

Here italian dealer for feinwerkbau:
http://lnx.use3.net/hosts/dominoguns/in ... category=1
down on the page: 1450€ standard price .... 1390€ special offer... ;(
Thank you.
Best regards,
LukeP.

These two shops (and several others in Germany with similar prices like allermann, stelljes, stopper...) are selling online. German shops are usually very reliable.

These German made pistol are always cheaper in Germany than in any other European countries. Shooters from France, Belgium, The Netherlands... often buy equipment from German online shops. Especially AP and AR that can be bought free.

About the alignment, I completely agree with Bill, the pistol should be aligned with your wrist being in a natural position, i.e. without turning your wrist.

The grip can be moved on the Steyr and FWB but the range of alignment is limited. If you really need a big move from the straigth alignment, you will probably need a special grip. A typical case is cross shooters for which special grips are made.

jipe wrote:

LukeP wrote:
These two shops (and several others in Germany with similar prices like allermann, stelljes, stopper...) are selling online. German shops are usually very reliable.

About the alignment, I completely agree with Bill, the pistol should be aligned with your wrist being in a natural position, i.e. without turning your wrist.

Thank you again Jipe and 2650. I'll try more gun as possibile before take one. Also i try to inform about german dealer, but i know quite sure that italian legislation is quite different from other european countries, and is needed some additional (relevant) charge to make a pistol arrive to italy.
Thank you again.
Best regards,
LukeP.

LukeP wrote:

jipe wrote:

LukeP wrote:
These two shops (and several others in Germany with similar prices like allermann, stelljes, stopper...) are selling online. German shops are usually very reliable.

About the alignment, I completely agree with Bill, the pistol should be aligned with your wrist being in a natural position, i.e. without turning your wrist.

Thank you again Jipe and 2650. I'll try more gun as possibile before take one. Also i try to inform about german dealer, but i know quite sure that italian legislation is quite different from other european countries, and is needed some additional (relevant) charge to make a pistol arrive to italy.
Thank you again.
Best regards,
LukeP.

In most European countries (only exception I know is Luxembourg) air pistol < 7.5Joules can freely been purchased for people above 18year. This is the case in Germany.

Of course you need to check what is the law in Italy.

jipe wrote: In most European countries (only exception I know is Luxembourg) air pistol < 7.5Joules can freely been purchased for people above 18year. This is the case in Germany.
Of course you need to check what is the law in Italy.

Yes, same law on Italy, but to receive pistol from other European Countries, in italy they receive a identificative number, that is printed on frame from Gardone "test centre". And to make arrive the gun to Gardone test centre, you must send various request (all with 14,62 tax), and prepare 2-3 month attending your time. Then you have the gun legally printed for italy.
The discount don't cover this addititional trouble.
Thank you.
Best regards,
LukeP.