TargetTalk

August 11, 2007 12:00 PM Michigan Air Pistol PTO

Sanctioned By:USA Shooting, 1 Olympic Plaza, Colorado Springs, CO

Contact: Thomas Monto P.O. Box 2502, Midland, MI 48641-2502
1-989-631-3079. E-mail: riversideshoot@aol.com

Location: Riverside Shooting Club (Duncan’s Outdoors) 501 Salzburg Bay City, MI 48706

Sponsored By:Riverside Shooting Club

Make Entry: Entries should be made using the entry form enclosed with this program. Mail entries to: Riverside Shooting Club, c/o Tom Monto PO Box 2502 Midland, MI 48641-2502.

Entry Fees: Entry fees are $20.00 for Match 1

Russ: How many shots per target in this match?

Anonymous wrote:Russ: How many shots per target in this match?

2006-07 USAS Open Air Pistol Matches - PTO

Course of Fire & Time Limit :Men/Women (60/40 Shots)


Sanctioned By: USA Shooting, 1 Olympic Plaza, Colorado Springs, CO

Sponsored By: Riverside Shooting Club

Contact: Thomas Monto P.O. Box 2502, Midland, MI 48641-2502
1-989-631-3079. E-mail: riversideshoot@aol.com

Dates: November 18, 2006, February 18, 2007, August 11, 2007

Location: Riverside Shooting Club (Duncan’s Outdoors) 501 Salzburg Bay City, MI 48706

Eligibility: This competition is open to all competitors, and juniors born in 1987 or later. All competitors must be members of USA Shooting.

Categories/ Adults: AA, A, B, C, & D, Unclassified
Classification: The following categories will be used for junior individual competition:
Junior (J1); age 18-20; competitors born from 1986-1988
Intermediate Junior (J2); age 15-17; competitors born from 1989-1991
Sub-Junior (J3); age 14 and under; competitors born in 1992 or later.

Classes will be the same as categories, with the addition of male and female.

Rules: Current USA Shooting Rules will govern for adults, Progressive-Position Pistol Provisional Rules (PPPPR) for juniors

Course of Fire: Men/Women
Match 1 60/40 Shots
Time Limit: Match 1 1 hour, 45 minutes/1 hour, 15 minutes

Fire Arm: USAS Rule 8.4.0, (PPPPR) Rule 4.1

Sights: USAS Rule 8.4.2.3 (PPPPR) Rule 4.1.4

Distance: 10 meters

Targets: B-40/4

Coaching: Coaching will not be allowed

Scoring Protests: A scoring protest of $2.00 per match will be charged.

Ties: All ties will be broken in accordance with USA Shooting Rules.

Awards: Riverside will provide individual awards based upon the following: 1-5 first, 6-10, second, 11-15 third, etc. Members of National Teams or National Development Teams will compete in a separate category.

Make Entry: Entries should be made using the entry form enclosed with this program. Mail entries to: Riverside Shooting Club, c/o Tom Monto PO Box 2502 Midland, MI 48641-2502.

Entry Fees: Entry fees are $20.00 for Match 1

Entries Close: 30 minutes before the relay is to start, providing there is room.

Cancellations: Cancellations received one week in advance, or earlier will receive full refund. No other refunds.

Schedule: Relay 1 12:00 PM
Other relays will be scheduled as entries warrant


2006-07 USAS Open Air Pistol Match - PTO


Name: ______________________________________________________________

Address: ________________________City: _____________ State: ____ Zip: _____

Telephone: ( ) _____________________ E-mail: __________________________

Date: [ ] November 18, 2006, [ ] February 3, 2007, [ ] August 11, 2007

Relay: 1

Birth date (required) ______________________ Male Female

Class:
Senior: AA A B C D Unclassified

Junior: J1 (18-20) J2 (15-17) J3 (14 and under)


Member National Team or National Development Team Yes No


__________________________________ ___________________ __________
Signature USAS Membership Number Expires

Russ: How many shots are fired at each bull ? Single shot or multiple shots?

Anonymous wrote:Russ: How many shots are fired at each bull ? Single shot or multiple shots?

Five shots in one target....

5?!

How on Earth are you gonna score such a target?

Mellberg wrote:5?!

How on Earth are you gonna score such a target?

Easy, my friend... This is not a new tradition on the Earth, at first!
Second, it is not a National or International level event... and third, do not be too smart! Keep it simple
Forth, are you personally done any thing... to help people start practicing with Olympic style shooting? Are just making "smart" arguments at TT?

Mellberg wrote:5?!

How on Earth are you gonna score such a target?

Very very few ranges in the U.S. have electronic targets or even mechanically/electrically powered AP target movers. I have run a number of matches using 5 shots per bull and the targets were scoreable even with competitors shooting in the 56x range. As Russ says, whatever it takes to get people to come and shoot AP.

I wish we had the facilities that are available to you in Europe.

Continue to shoot well,

Fred

Mellberg wrote:5?!

How on Earth are you gonna score such a target?

Every match other than the Nationals and the Grand Prix are five shots/target for Air Pistol. There are no electronic targets anywhere in the country. And scoring is not the difficult

Getting away from who is contributing what to the development of the sport and back to the substance of the question, what do the ISSF rules say?

While scoring 5 per bull is fairly reliable for scores in the 550s, a surprisingly large amount of bias is induced for scoring in the 570s.

That's why 5 per bull scoring is not approved for national records etc., at least in the US (to the best of my recollection).

What I have seen some MDs do down here in Texas is use 5 per bull for A or lower classifications, and use the legal 2 per bull for all AA shooters. That way a cluster of 3 10s and 2 9s doesn't end up scored as a 50 . . . sure, some may say this makes it "uphill" for the AA shooters, but hey, I want it to be uphill for me when I am shooting well.

Even using "outside edge" tools and overlay templates, it is difficult to tease out the two nines from a group of five. And many arguments and challenges ensue . . . or not . . . depending on the cantankerousness and/or backbone factor of the MD.

That's why any scores around or above 570, shot on 5 per card targets need to be treated carefully.

Steve Swartz

Steve Swartz wrote:...and use the legal 2 per bull for all AA shooters.

Not under ISSF rule 8.15.0, 1 shot only per target.

Hmmmm. I see now why Russ has a such a large average given what he shot at Nationals.

David Levene wrote:

Steve Swartz wrote:...and use the legal 2 per bull for all AA shooters.

Not under ISSF rule 8.15.0, 1 shot only per target.

Technically thats not the total truth because you can put 2 shots on 2 targets with out penalty so I suggest they do beleive you can score 2 shots on the same target.

But really who cares.

And Steve how many 570 shooters are there shooting Air Pistol in North America? Not a lot unfortunately.

Hmmm . . . wonder where I got the "2 per target" from? Maybe NRA international rules? I know a couple of clubs where the 2 per is the "rule."

As to the need for 570 shooters to use 1 per target (setting the 2 per aside), I prefer 1- and offer to pay extra to cover target costs.

I just never liked the "multiple shots per target" thing. Some clubs I shoot at the MD pretty much insists on 5 per (and I don't argue, but still offer to pay extra so I can use 1 per). But if I am going to shoot 1 per in "real" competition I want to shoot 1 per at clubs and PTOs.

I also don't think it's fair for the better shooter to get a "tailwind" in a local/state match . . .

Steve

Steve Swartz wrote:Hmmm . . . wonder where I got the "2 per target" from? Maybe NRA international rules? I know a couple of clubs where the 2 per is the "rule."

As to the need for 570 shooters to use 1 per target (setting the 2 per aside), I prefer 1- and offer to pay extra to cover target costs.

I just never liked the "multiple shots per target" thing. Some clubs I shoot at the MD pretty much insists on 5 per (and I don't argue, but still offer to pay extra so I can use 1 per). But if I am going to shoot 1 per in "real" competition I want to shoot 1 per at clubs and PTOs.

I also don't think it's fair for the better shooter to get a "tailwind" in a local/state match . . .

Steve

Makes total sense its always best to train and practice as you would in competion.

One thing I've done when forced to shoot 5 per on 12 targets is shoot 1 shot on each target then go thru them again 5 more time. This way you're not changing your timing no matter how many they make you shoot on a target at any match its always a single shot. (I've yet to see written anywhere in anyones rules that you must shoot 5 concesutive shoots on a target)

Richard H wrote:

David Levene wrote:

Steve Swartz wrote:...and use the legal 2 per bull for all AA shooters.

Not under ISSF rule 8.15.0, 1 shot only per target.

Technically thats not the total truth because you can put 2 shots on 2 targets with out penalty so I suggest they do beleive you can score 2 shots on the same target.

If you want to be technically correct Richard then you can actually put 3 shots on 1 target. The allowance in 8.6.6.2.1.2 tells you how many addititinal shots can be fired without penalty, without saying how many additional shots are allowed per target.

That does not mean that they are happy accurately scoring 3 shots on a target. All that it means is that they feel the difficulty of scoring and the possibility of a protest is an acceptable compromise given the expected rarity of it happening.

Richard H wrote:One thing I've done when forced to shoot 5 per on 12 targets is shoot 1 shot on each target then go thru them again 5 more time. This way you're not changing your timing no matter how many they make you shoot on a target at any match its always a single shot. (I've yet to see written anywhere in anyones rules that you must shoot 5 concesutive shoots on a target)

How would you handle a count-back to break a tie.

I'm not trying to be a smartass or something. It's just that I've never seen a match with 5 shots per target. We don't have that much electronic targets here in Sweden either, but some ranges do have them. For example the national championship is usually nowadays shot on Megalink targets.

When shot on regular paper scorecards we mostly shoot 2 shots per target. The tricky thing is if someone shoots lets say a 9,9 and a 10,0 basicly in the same hole. I can imagine 3-4 shots in a cluster somewhere in the 9,9-10,0. Must be a nightmare.

David Levene wrote:

Richard H wrote:One thing I've done when forced to shoot 5 per on 12 targets is shoot 1 shot on each target then go thru them again 5 more time. This way you're not changing your timing no matter how many they make you shoot on a target at any match its always a single shot. (I've yet to see written anywhere in anyones rules that you must shoot 5 concesutive shoots on a target)

How would you handle a count-back to break a tie.

Personally I really don't care, and really niether do they or they wouldn't have you shooting 5 on a card. It doesn't happen that often that I would loose sleep over it. But they would, just use the last series like they always would.

I've been to matches where you shoot 3 on a card, how would they handle a count back?

How do they know the targets were shot in the order they were handed in?
Don't say because they are numbered because that doesn't prove the order they were shot in.

Mellberg wrote:I'm not trying to be a smartass or something. It's just that I've never seen a match with 5 shots per target. We don't have that much electronic targets here in Sweden either, but some ranges do have them. For example the national championship is usually nowadays shot on Megalink targets.

When shot on regular paper scorecards we mostly shoot 2 shots per target. The tricky thing is if someone shoots lets say a 9,9 and a 10,0 basicly in the same hole. I can imagine 3-4 shots in a cluster somewhere in the 9,9-10,0. Must be a nightmare.

Nightmare??? Lets put this in perspective we are talking about local matches not the Olympics or World Cup. Do you guys really care that much that 2 shots would be scored tens even if 1 is a 9.9?

I'm going out now to shoot 5 shots on targets just so that I can have a better score like the "Guest" accused Russ of.

David you really should get out and shoot more ;) Even if its 5 shots on a card 8).

Is there not a rule in the ISSF about not being able to determine the value of a shot on a target shot with multiple shots (in std pistol, cntr fire or Sport). I'm in a hurry to go now so I'll check later.