TargetTalk

Can this thinking destroy the potential for a good shot and ,if so what should the shooter do about it? Even so slight a negative thought as I have to be careful on this next shot can be destructive in executing the shot. If you have just fired a bad shot even the slightest concern about results is sufficent to affect the subconcious parts of the execution of the next shot. In other words , if you allow even the slightest element of fear or concern to enter the mind that should cause you to abort and re think what you want to do.on the next shot. By trying to gut it out you may enter a very destructive downward cycle that can be avoided. Always think about how many more good shots you fire and never admit the possibility of an error Positive pays off. Good Shooting Bill Horton

"Aiming at a distant object and hitting it - that, of course is impossible. But if we throw a stone in the right direction, imagining the absurd possibility of hitting the object will make success more probable. In this case the certainty that this can happen is more important than training and will."
-Niels Bohr (physicist, nobelist too)

The Russian coach (Podb... or something like that) quoted Bohr in one of his two lectures about pistol shooting. As far as I remember (from a book I've read about him) during a walk in Copenhagen Bohr threw a stone at a very distant target, with success ... and great astonishment of the people there.

given the skills (hit rate) of a reasonably skilled child when using a slingshot or sling...!

What,
no sights...
no 'ammunition testing'...
no coaching...

Spencer

I once threw a dirt clod from my right field baseball position at the back of the head of the second baseman who, for some reason now long forgotten, deserved it. There was absolutely no way my little league throwing could hit such an object so I was quite safe in merely dreaming of the effect of the actually thrown object.

Yup, you guessed it, the clod smacked him square on the back of the head. [Boy, was he mad!]

Today, my pre-shot process includes visualization of a new hole, dead center in the target. The results often shake my beliefs in physical cause and effect.

Spooky!

When a flyer happens the reaction to the situation can be a problem whether it’s negative or not. Sometimes it’s known or not known what caused a flyer and this can draw the attention and thoughts away from actually shooting. The analysis of a bad shot can start an emotional urge to consciously or unconsciously "adjust" for the next shot to prevent whatever happened the last time. The voice of reason tries to counter this with, “The gun’s okay just shoot like in practice.” “Don’t invent anything new.” The logical voice also reasons, “The target isn’t smaller and it hasn’t moved” or maybe this is the voice of your coach...

However, we still have the urge to do something about it and this is when things can go wrong. There’s a danger that the next few shots aren’t so successful. This urge is never permanent and eventually everything eventually settles down again.

The trick is not to shoot until the pesky voices are quiet again so they aren’t messing with the conscious or subconscious. Patience and courage is required to ride it out and there’s usually plenty of time during a match. Sometimes it takes doing something different. Count ammo, do relaxation exercises, drink, eat or look at the cute girl in the lane next to you who’s kicking your butt.

This approach usually works for me in high power, smallbore and especially in my current game Japanese Archery (Kyudo). I’m starting AP, which is why I’m lurking on this forum, and I hope Kyudo techniques will help.

boz

Hi bill, errors happen, its knowing they can that drives us to do what we can to avoid them. but in saying that, you cant change the position of the last shot, only the future ones.

nice to see someone visualising the shot hole to help actually putting it in the middle.

spencer, kids do it without thought or concequence. It's only when those highly intellegent, highly trained people try to teach us to do it differently it gets very hard.

bryan

i have tried this technique of "visualisation" before. it is something like brainwashing oneself, that one can shoot 10, will shot ten and will HAD shoot 10. the shot which comes out will most likely as hoped, a 10.

but the downside of this technique is that once encouraged by the series of 10s, u tend to easily lose focus, resulting in flyers. u may start getting confuse with the concept of "visualisation" and being unaware that you are "leaning to the front"

think those who r planning to try out this technique should do some serious mental training before attempting.

For me, it seems to hinge on the word "anticipation." If I can stay focused, calm and unworried/positive in my mind while the shot breaks, all is usually good. If I anticipate the shot (usually by trying too hard for any number of reasons) bad things happen. It's definitely a tricky state of mind to achieve, though, at least for me. Getting in that zone of calm, confident control -- and staying there -- is soooo hard.

I've wondered what it would be like to be inside the mind of a top shooter and see what goes on there. I've been told the answer is "not much" and I believe it. They're able to turn off the over-thinking and "just do it."

.donthc wrote:i have tried this technique of "visualisation" before. it is something like brainwashing oneself, that one can shoot 10, will shot ten and will HAD shoot 10. the shot which comes out will most likely as hoped, a 10.

but the downside of this technique is that once encouraged by the series of 10s, u tend to easily lose focus, resulting in flyers. u may start getting confuse with the concept of "visualisation" and being unaware that you are "leaning to the front"

think those who r planning to try out this technique should do some serious mental training before attempting.

i would say your getting the cause and effect wrong. you visualise the perfect shot. being perfect in execution, it ends up as a ten. sounds the same? actually its very different.

have confidence in your technique scores can come latter.

i would say your getting the cause and effect wrong. you visualise the perfect shot. being perfect in execution, it ends up as a ten. sounds the same? actually its very different.

please explain?

but the downside of this technique is that once encouraged by the series of 10s, u tend to easily lose focus, resulting in flyers. u may start getting confuse with the concept of "visualisation" and being unaware that you are "leaning to the front"

You loose focus because you deviated from the plan that got you the series of 10's in the first place, this in normal starting out, just remember how you got the string of good shots, and why they stopped. next time you will get further. leaning on front foot not such a problem as say not following plan! how you feel is telling you you are balanced(muscle memory) but if focused well, it wont effect the result.
It can distract you from following your plan if you think it is important.
now this is at the top end of competing, when starting out, you need to learn good muscle memory, so you dont worry about the little things. this takes time.

bryan

bryan wrote:Hi bill, errors happen, its knowing they can that drives us to do what we can to avoid them. but in saying that, you cant change the position of the last shot, only the future ones.

Just a story to think about:

I'd shot two tens and a nine, and scoped each in a ten shot per target (in ten minutes) format, when I experienced an "AH-Sh.." release. Instead of verifying how wide, I visualized checking the scope and finding a wide ten. For the rest of the target I visualized a ten for each shot after it was fired. When finished, I scoped the entire target and found three nines and seven tens. Did I move the wild one back in? Maybe the results aren't written until they're verified...

I've shot some good matches without using a scope...

What would be the results of training where no matter what you did, the shot registered as a ten?

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Ed Hall wrote:

bryan wrote:Hi bill, errors happen, its knowing they can that drives us to do what we can to avoid them. but in saying that, you cant change the position of the last shot, only the future ones.

Maybe the results aren't written until they're verified...


What would be the results of training where no matter what you did, the shot registered as a ten?

once they are gone, there gone, even the ones you really dont want to look to confirm. picturing the shot after firing has no impact on the ones in the target, only the ones in the gun! So picturing a good shot, then seeing the result of a good shot is preparing for the ones in the gun, increasing the chance they go in the same place.
only issue I can see is you may find yourself picturing poor results, not the results you want, increasing the chance of a poor result!

next is more interesting. If you were shooting results, and scoping each one, so you knew the result, it would become very uncomfortable if you are not used to shooting only tens, and with this mindset, it is unlikely you could maintain enough control to keep doing it.
but if shooting technique, it may also be uncomfortable, but as you are not result based, keeping control will be a lot easier, helping to continue shooting tens.

bryan

double post???

A quantum leap in technique? Does moving from the nine ring to the ten ring take any time at all? Can the finals be scored with this methodology?
Just don't shoot Whats-his-names cat.
-BothellBob

[quote="

The uncertainty principle applied to reality, or the bifurcation of reality through observation. The shot exists as both a 10 and not a 10 until the observer forces the result to coalesce through observation.

Coupled with controlled manifesting of reality by thorough projection of the belief in the existence of the 10 reality. Through total commitment to such belief we force the bifurcation to choose the route of the 10.

As usual master ED, your insights require further meditation...Ommmmmmmm.... Ommm

LArry[/quote]

In the Geico TV commercial caveman voice:

Uh, What?

Im with jackh

finals results are posted before we have a chance to alter them, or was that after? guess it depends on who has the gauge! lol

BothellBob wrote:A quantum leap in technique? Does moving from the nine ring to the ten ring take any time at all? Can the finals be scored with this methodology?
Just don't shoot Whats-his-names cat.
-BothellBob

Schrodinger

BothellBob wrote:A quantum leap in technique? Does moving from the nine ring to the ten ring take any time at all? Can the finals be scored with this methodology?
-BothellBob

No, the finals can't be scored this way. As soon as you observe the result, all other potential quantum states collapse.

What do you look for when you fire a shot that seemed to be a total flyer?

Most shooters check to make sure it was that wide and to assess the damage.

"Seek, and ye shall find!"

What if you curbed that impulse to verify how bad it was, and replaced it with imagery that it turned out OK?

At worst, the shot stays a flyer, like you would expect, but you have stopped the impulse to lament over it and possibly provide it with an eternal mate.

At best, you might find it wasn't really "out there."

And, besides, the single (or even double) flyer isn't what's holding shooters to the 570 area (let alone lower). It's all those other ones that weren't tens...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/