TargetTalk

This last week, we started our air pistol league. It's an indoor 10m range with clothesline style carriers for the targets. Each week, it's 30 shots, two pellets through each target. It's a fun league and I enjoy it.

All last season, I used a scope and I did get some funny looks because I was the only one doing that. But I train in my basement with a scope and would prefer not to change my routine any more than I have to for a match. And, anyway, both international and NRA rules allow a scope unconditionally.

But this last week, the fellow that runs our league insisted out-of-the-blue that I was not allowed to use a scope. Realistically, I don't know what set him off.

At first he insisted they didn't have the space, but of course, that was pretty silly because it was in my space. Then he declared I didn't need a scope because of the carriers and that it was simply "local rules" to disallow it, even though it wasn't written down. He admitted he was being arbitrary but he claimed he was within his rights as match director to make these rules on the spot.

Okay, this wasn't something to argue, so I took the scope down and just shot the match. (Fwiw, my score was fine, so if the intent was to rattle me, I guess it didn't work. :)

Still, this struck me as just very odd behavior. I suppose he's right: It's not a sanctioned league, so as match director, he probably can order anything he likes and if you don't agree, you don't have to shoot his match. There's always a choice to go elsewhere, I suppose.

But I guess my reason for posting is to ask if arbitrary "local rules" seem to be just part and parcel of non-sanctioned matches (or if you run into them even in sanctioned matches.) Do you just do your best to ignore the nonsense and move on? Have you ever said to yourself, oh, screw it, I'll shoot elsewhere? Anyone care to contribute their favorite "war stories?"

Nicole Hamilton wrote:And, anyway, both international and NRA rules allow a scope unconditionally.

If you are referring to the ISSF rules Nicole then I'm afraid you're wrong.

8.4.10.1 Spotting Telescopes
The use of telescopes not attached to the pistol to locate shots or judge the wind is permitted for 25 m and 50 m events only.

If you were shooting one-shot-per-paper-target or you were using an electronic target system with TV monitors it would make sense that a scope would not be allowed. But it makes no sense to be denied the use of a scope if you are shooting more than one shot on a paper target. Even with just two-shots-per-target, how do you adjust your aim for the second shot? I know no one who can see pellet holes in the black at ten meters without a scope. Nicole's friend might just as well have demanded that she wear a blindfold.

PardiniGSP wrote:If you were shooting one-shot-per-paper-target or you were using an electronic target system with TV monitors it would make sense that a scope would not be allowed. But it makes no sense to be denied the use of a scope if you are shooting more than one shot on a paper target. Even with just two-shots-per-target, how do you adjust your aim for the second shot? I know no one who can see pellet holes in the black at ten meters without a scope. Nicole's friend might just as well have demanded that she wear a blindfold.

If you want to see each shot when firing more than one shot per target, why not wind the target back to the firing line (or half way, as many do)?

Spencer

I guess the match director can make up his own rules. However,not permitting a spotting scope in a local A/P match is a bit obtuse and counter productive.My personal feelings are-if the person running the match is doing something illegal,creating a safety problem,unfairly enforcing rules,charging too high an entry fee or not allowing a friendly atmosphere/spirit-I would simply not enter that kind of match.

I'd imagine there must have been quite a racket at the beginning of the match, what with all those sighting targets being run back and forth to check the shots. Couldn't have helped those starting their record targets. I wear both ear plugs AND muffs, and still find it disconcerting.

Paul

Here's one "constitutional" rule of any sport: a competitor should not have an unfair advantage over the others.

If Nicole is using a piece of equipment that allows her to adjust the sites during the competition (even though earlier she insisted that you'd need a bazillion sample size to adjust the sites with any confidence, so why she'd need a scope is beyond me), while other people don't, then even though while not explicitly prohibited by rules, it becomes "unconstitutional".

The local judge has my respect for having the balls to follow the "spirit of the law" instead of going by the letter.


Can you imagine arriving with all 3P gear (jacket, pants, boots, etc) to a local league where kids in t-shirts shoot 10/22s? Ridiculous.


If you're the only one doing something (that isn't part of the technique) that gets you "funny looks", take it as a hint: you probably shouldn't be doing that.

I loaded the ISSF rules and found the following:

"USA
8.4.10.1A The use of telescopes not attached to the pistol to locate shots or judge the wind is permitted for all pistol events."

If one is shooting more than one shot on a bull, I think the scope is valuable and falls within the USA rules.

One could bring the taget part way back to check, but that is time consuming and distracting (my personal opinion).

I would be interested in the rationale given for the "No scopes" local rule.

Tillman

"If you want to see each shot when firing more than one shot per target, why not wind the target back to the firing line (or half way, as many do)?"

How convenient. Why not just use a scope. They are quite harmless. They don't bother or distract anyone - unlike reeling in targets half-way every thirty seconds.

tleddy wrote:I loaded the ISSF rules and found the following:

"USA
8.4.10.1A The use of telescopes not attached to the pistol to locate shots or judge the wind is permitted for all pistol events."

That is not an ISSF rule, it's a US "local rule".

If you want the ISSF Pistol Rules then get them from the ISSF web site.

PardiniGSP wrote:How convenient. Why not just use a scope.

Simply because if you are shooting under strict ISSF conditions scopes are not allowed.

AAlex wrote:Here's one "constitutional" rule of any sport: a competitor should not have an unfair advantage over the others.

If Nicole is using a piece of equipment that allows her to adjust the sites during the competition (even though earlier she insisted that you'd need a bazillion sample size to adjust the sites with any confidence, so why she'd need a scope is beyond me), while other people don't, then even though while not explicitly prohibited by rules, it becomes "unconstitutional".

Nicole clearly states they use target carriers so every shooter has the same advantage of being able to sight each shot. If local rules permit scopes then she should be permitted to use one, especially as it confers no advantage. Personally I whizz my target back and forth after every shot. Whilst it's fair enough for the match director to change the rules, it does appear obtuse. I would simply ask him why he's brought in the changes ?

I may then withdraw from the competition and still use my scope, but then that may be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Rob.

AAlex wrote:Here's one "constitutional" rule of any sport: a competitor should not have an unfair advantage over the others.

If Nicole is using a piece of equipment that allows her to adjust the sites during the competition (even though earlier she insisted that you'd need a bazillion sample size to adjust the sites with any confidence, so why she'd need a scope is beyond me), while other people don't, then even though while not explicitly prohibited by rules, it becomes "unconstitutional".

Nicole clearly states they use target carriers so every shooter has the same advantage of being able to sight each shot. If local rules permit scopes then she should be permitted to use one, especially as it confers no advantage. Personally I whizz my target back and forth after every shot. Whilst it's fair enough for the match director to change the rules, it does appear obtuse. I would simply ask him why he's brought in the changes ?

I may then withdraw from the competition and still use my scope, but then that may be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Rob.

"...I whizz my target back and forth after every shot..."

What effect do you think all that whizzing has on the people shooting around you?

This was not international competition. Here in the States, we shoot in USAS, and sometimes NRA sanctioned competitions. We should therefore, be governed by THEIR rules, not ISSF.

Paul

[quote="PardiniGSP]
What effect do you think all that whizzing has on the people shooting around you?[/quote]

I know you had to be smiling as you posted that!:>)

Paul

pgfaini wrote:Here in the States, we shoot in USAS, and sometimes NRA sanctioned competitions. We should therefore, be governed by THEIR rules, not ISSF.

That's fair enough. I was merely pointing out that if, by talking about "international" rules, she was referring to ISSF rules then telescopes are not allowed for 10m pistol competitions.

This last week, we started our air pistol league. It's an indoor 10m range with clothesline style carriers for the targets. Each week, it's 30 shots, two pellets through each target. It's a fun league and I enjoy it.

Obviously this league is being shot under local club rules; not NRA, not USAS, not ISSF. So, have the rules for this league been posted? Most club leagues are shot under local rules and it is the responsibility of the match director to make everyone aware of them. In this case, he did inform you, at the start of the season, that spotting scopes were not allowed.

My club also has a 10m AP league: 20 shots into a B40/4 target. No sighters. No time limit. In addition to spotting scopes, optical sights are allowed to attract the BE shooters (many of whom have forgotten how to shoot with iron sights :-)) Arbitrary and different, but all the competitors are aware of the rules. We have a match director for one of the AR matches that I do not shoot in because I dislike his match rules.

Hi, David -

You are correct that the ISSF in the International arena does not allow scopes under 25 metres...Note that the rule I posted is specific to the USA and is so designated by the letter"A" following.

Tillman

tleddy wrote:"USA
8.4.10.1A The use of telescopes not attached to the pistol to locate shots or judge the wind is permitted for all pistol events."

Thank you, Tillman, for quoting that. Yes, I was being sloppy in my reference to "international rules." Here in the US, we think of shooting events as either NRA or "international-style." But since we're here in the US, even "international" events still follow national rules set by USAS. (But contrary to David's characterization, when you have a set of rules that apply to an entire nation of 300M people, I think it's a stretch to call that "local." :)

Answering AAlex's point re: the funny looks I got last year, that wasn't because anyone thought I was getting an unfair advantage. They looked at me funny because I was using a huge 82mm Kowa they were amazed would even focus close enough and because they DIDN'T see how it could give me any advantage. They thought I was wasting my time setting up a scope. Several people came over at different times last season offering what they clearly intended as helpful advice that I could dispense with lugging that big scope because it was perfectly legal to reel the target back between shots and they weren't sure I knew that.

And indeed, without the scope, that's what I did do. It's inconvenient, slower, and it breaks my routine of taking the shot, then immediately comparing my mental snapshot, calling the shot, with what I see through the scope. But reeling them back does work and didn't seem to affect my score. It was just a hassle that seemed silly.

For those who suggested they would have asked the reason for disallowing scopes, I did! I gave you the answers I got! The only bottom line seemed to be simply, "Yes, I'm being arbitrary and making it up on the spot but as match director, I get to do that!" It's possible he's pissed at me (or who knows, maybe it's someone else, and he's just taking it out on me) for some reason, but he didn't tell me that. My guess is he was just in a foul mood and being passive aggressive, harassing me because it let him vent his emotions. We're all adults but we all behave like children sometimes.