TargetTalk

One very good reason for not aborting the shot when we know we should is - we think we can do better by overriding our natural instincts. This is a very common problem for almost every shooter I have spoken to over the last 20 odd years of Pistol Shooting. It comes about through our inate sense of "knowing" better, and therefore, we hold on just that little bit longer to make sure it is a perfect shot.

What we all fail to realise is, that by the time we have decided to hold onto the shot and make it happen, we have already gone past our crucial time for the shot release. Now I know we have all done this and "steered" the shot into the 10 ring, but for all the effort that it took, wouldn't it be much better to realise we should abort the shot and start again fresh and RESTED. It isn't just that shot that is affected it is the subsequent 3 for 4 shots also.

I am in favour of letting the shot release earlier rather than holding on for dear life hoping that the wobble will get better and sit still in the centre of the aiming area.

In all reality this is about good technique rather than anything else, if the shot hasn't broken by the "normal" time, our technique must have something stopping the shot breaking, so therefore it should not break at anytime after the "normal" time for your own shooting.

David:

Is something without explanation so that a shooter does not abort a shot that he knows goes to leave badly or have the enormous possibility that leaves bad.

I consider that is the difference between the elite shooters and the mass of gunners.

some times abortion so many times the shot, that I decide to shoot although is bad.

Nano

Nano wrote:David:

I consider that is the difference between the elite shooters and the mass of gunners.

Nano

I agree... and now have to face the fact that I am not , nor have ever been , an elite shooter !

The question of this thread is a very good one , both relevant and interesting .

One reason that comes to my mind is an observation about 'human nature' in general . Homo Sapiens is lazy ... he balks at the thought of aborting... resting and coming up all over again ! Too much trouble and he hates hard work ! He could also be afflicted with an even more serious ailment : The mistaken idea that he can somehow 'fix it' every time !! An even worse affliction is stupidity... the fact that he overstays his welcome in the aiming area and struggles to let off a shot that he knows is bad because he didn't abort and yet keeps doing it time and again.. even in matches !!

Cesare Morini is a very creative pistol designer.... He was clever enough to design a pistol that will not load if the air pressure in the cylinder is not enough to deliver a reliable shot .... Surely he can design a pistol that will sieze up after say , 15 seconds and not fire ? We can perhaps ask him to add a timer to the electronic trigger assembly that will activate with the raise and shut off after a maximum of fifteen seconds !

If he can do it .........I'll switch to the Morini162ElT* ( T= timer ).

Elmas

.

Nano wrote:David:

I consider that is the difference between the elite shooters and the mass of gunners.

Nano

Nano,
Yep you've hit the nail on the head. That said we can all train it out of ourselves, if we really want to. Give yourself a pat on the back because you still have a 10 in the gun, rather than an 8 or worse in the target, each time you abort.

Rob.

Brilliant idea Elmas!!

Programmable time by COACH!

Marcus

Brilliant idea Elmas!!

Programmable time by COACH!

Marcus

A combination of Elmas' trigger timeout/lockout proposal with jh martin's random delay to fire!

jhmartin wrote: A fully electronic trigger with a random delay (programmable of course via your blue-tooth phone or i-pod) would be much simpler

and what for have we the head with brains?? :)

human [homo sapiens] is better as EI... EIT... and so on.

It is simple:... lets make our shoots when we are really ready!...
or in exceptions: alignment...[one...two..3...4...5.... no shot?,,..... abort...]

I suppose the question should be asked, are we shooting for the "fun" of it, or are we shooting to compete against ourselves and try to get better each time we shoot?
I love the feeling of standing on the range and shooting, as well as competing against other shooters. But at the same time, I always want to improve my technique and make every shot better than the last.

Elmas wrote: Cesare Morini is a very creative pistol designer.... He was clever enough to design a pistol that will not load if the air pressure in the cylinder is not enough to deliver a reliable shot .... Surely he can design a pistol that will sieze up after say , 15 seconds and not fire ? We can perhaps ask him to add a timer to the electronic trigger assembly that will activate with the raise and shut off after a maximum of fifteen seconds !

If he can do it .........I'll switch to the Morini162ElT* ( T= timer ).

Elmas

.

I think one of the problem is that we are often trying too hard, all our energy is in a forward direction, it take a lot of mental effort to reverse that. some days i thin Data or Spock from star trek would make the best pistol shots!


On the subject of electronics the imagination can run wild...... Suppose we digitally process the input signal from the trigger. Now we have plenty of options;

First off we could disable the trigger if the first stage hold is too long. naturally this should be configurable for the individual shooter. you could add a click sound to alert the shooter when the lock has been activated.

Secondly we could detect pressure profiles and prevent the gun fireing in a "snatch situation"

A motion detector could also be used to prevent the gun for firing, due to poor balance or shake.

Hell why place a gyro stabalisor between the grip and the rest of the gun! probably fits in the current free pistol rules!. - no i did not check.

Come to think of it the first three might well make useful training tools. Though i would hate to see them in a match.

JY

The idea of an electronic trigger lockout sounds good in theory. However, it would probably lead to a new set of problems, like anticipating the lockout, rushing to get the shot off before the lockout, etc.

alb wrote:The idea of an electronic trigger lockout sounds good in theory. However, it would probably lead to a new set of problems, like anticipating the lockout, rushing to get the shot off before the lockout, etc.

I agree !

Problem is , how do we lockout our human nature and its foibles?

Perhaps through 'educating' ourselves out of our bad habits by diligent training and perseverance.... I have always believed that the qualities we acquire in developing our shooting skills spill over into other venues of our individual lives. We reap the benefits of self control , concentration , caution and taking pains , being more patient with ourselves , conquering a lot of our self doubt , dealing with stress.. the list goes on ... They even say it keeps us younger !!


Elmas

.

I you shoot using Steves consept you should abort the instant you start thinking, rather than relying on the subconsious to do the fine control and cooridination necessary to fire an acceptable shot. [ I can only hope I've got this right]. If you are a thinking shooter, then you must think exactly the same thing on every shot. If you are successful in directed thought process you can recognise when you deveiate from you proper thought process and abort. Problem If you let your mind wander and think differently on eack shot you will be unable to identify breaks in the thought process and have no clear signal to abort. Of the two,I suspect Steve' approach is the most reliable. Good Shooting Bill Horton

I have another explanation. We are lazy. Lazy to go back to the start and try again. Which therefore leads us to contemplate using our ill prepared "wit" to disregard procedures and gamble on that shot hitting 10.

Either that or we are really short of time. That's been happening to me.

Many of us have a technical bent, it's hard to reverse the habits of a lifetime , and not try to " fix things " . Any data on whether lady shooters are less stubbornin this regard ?

Chris

I watched the olympic bronze medalist shoot wap, she took about 3 attempts for every shot, shot the last shot with less than a minute left. suprised she didnt request 3 medals! LOL
she had a plan, and stuck to it.

bryan

cdf wrote:Many of us have a technical bent, it's hard to reverse the habits of a lifetime , and not try to " fix things " . Any data on whether lady shooters are less stubbornin this regard ?

Chris

That's pretty funny... I had the chance to "coach" a few new-female rifle shooters. And their learning curve, scores, improved much faster them any guy I've ever seen.

I was always surprise when they would put the rifle down to take a break in a match... I came to the conclusion that they did not have that "testosterone, I know better" problem that many male shooters have.

They will simply do what they are told. And if you tel them to put the gun down if they have released the shot after x amount of time... they will simply do it!

I whish I was that smart ;-)

sillymike wrote:... I had the chance to "coach" a few new-female rifle shooters. And their learning curve, scores, improved much faster them any guy I've ever seen.

I was always surprise when they would put the rifle down to take a break in a match... I came to the conclusion that they did not have that "testosterone, I know better" problem that many male shooters have.

They will simply do what they are told. And if you tel them to put the gun down if they have released the shot after x amount of time... they will simply do it!

Yes, my experience as well - teaching novice women to shoot a pistol.
The really bad situations were with couples where the wife could outshoot the husband.

Most interesting about women shooters. I have had essentially the same things happen. I've come to believe [ suspect] thav womens advantage may have something to do with male ego. Men assume they already know how to shoot ,while women do as was mentioned earlier, what ever they are taught by their coach. Gail Liberty comes to mind. One more catagory of individuals comes to mind. Surgeans, probably becaust of the way they are trained in their professions. process information very accurately and are really amazing in applying what they have been told. I ran into this phenominon conducting training for the doctors preparing for duty in Veit Nam. Good Shooting, Bill Horton