TargetTalk

I am 62 ,

I noted recently one of the many causes for my bad shots : The Intentional Tremor.

Older people seem to suffer from this with varying degrees ... Your hold is steady ( well , steadyish ) till you intentionally try to stop your pistol moving to execute a shot... that's when a definite jerk or slide of the sights takes place because of this intentional tremor phenomenon . Occuring synchronously with the trigger pull...

Its not the old ' trigger jerk' where your triggering is snatchy or oblique... No , the wrist is locked , the sights aligned .... the pull is progressive and straight back just like the book says , but the entire arm shifts away from the aiming area with the trigger pull due to some sort of musle tension .

Now that I am aware of it... I try to let off my shot without in any way trying to ' voluntarily' make adjustments to my "wobble" .. This usually gives me better shot placements.

Has anyone noticed this in themselves.... ( the over sixties ) ??

Elmas

.

I just abort the shot and try again. Every time I "Force" a shot, I'm sorry afterward, and kick myself. Especially toward the end of a match or training session, when I tend to drop my arm. I've raised the gun as many as six times before letting the shot go, especially in FP. Telling myself there's a "10.9" in the barrel waiting to get out helps!:>) I'm 67.
Paul

Elmas,
You are not alone. I liken the affliction you describe to what aging golfers experience called the "yips". Fortunately for me I don't take this stuff too seriosly anymore and only shoot for my own pleasure in my basement. I just accept it when it happens and try (hope) to do better on the next target. You might try some arm/grip exercises to improve your strength and flexibility. Getting old sucks.

Hi,
I have been having similar problems (and so has my wife!) We are over 70.
I have talked to other guys in my Club, regarding this problem. Some people say I have too fine a rear sight, others say I am holding too long, and some say I should make the sight radius shorter (bring the front sight back a bit).
I have been working on the sights for the last few days, but have gone back to almost the original position, as that is what seems to suit me the best.

I know I hold the sighting a bit longer - and probably I should get the shots away faster. Ths impact on the targer seems, lately, to be at 7 or 8o'clock - to the left. It shows up mostly in the 50m and 10m precision matches (Free Pistol and Air pistol).

I have gone back to shooting on a blank target, and concentrating on a vertical line.
If you find a solution to your problem, Please share it with us! If you have a stop watch, have someone stay behind you, and see the time from setting the sights to releasing the shot. I would be interested to know what your time is. It should be 5 -8 seconds. My time is very inconsistent, and a bit longer than this.
Regards,
Alex L.

My shots are all mostly between 8 and 12 seconds , with some extending to over sixteen seconds when I try to 'rebuild' a bad alignment by going back up over the black and coming down anew to the airming area at six o'clock... If I can retain my concentration for the duration , sometimes I succeed in salvaging a bad try without coming down completely...

My problem lies with muscle coarse tremor that increases with any attempt at 'intentional movement' . I know this may be common with many of the older shooters .
What I do is this .. raise , then come down over the black into the standard "sub-six" area to let off the shot like most people...Now if I just wait for my pistol to come down and settle ON ITS OWN into the aiming area , my shot release is undisturbed by involuntary movement , but if I try to keep my arm forcibly from moving away from the 'sweet spot' , the triggering results in a movement of the whole arm into the seven or out of the black .
I know I need to be patient and try to be an 'Onlooker' rather than actuator of the shot process to get my best shots .. but problems of concentration and coarse muscle movements , the price of age perhaps , tend to pose challenging obstacles. (( All the more fun to overcome )) .
I think one needs patience most of all ... and tolerance. both are great virtues in their own right and indispensable to AP and FP .

Elmas

.

Elmas,

I doubt that you will fin the answer to this in a gun club, I know I am out of my depth on this one. However; as i read it with age there seems to be some loss of fine motor control in the hand/forearm, so as tension on one set of muscles ie the trigger increases it produce an erratic "sympathy" reaction in others. Defiantly sounds like age :(

I would pay a visit to a physiotherapist and discuss the situation, I am certain there are exercises that can be used to help this kind of thing. And whilst you are at it add some balance improving exercise to shrink that hold area :)

Julian

At age 76 I cannot detect any difference in my shooting scores when I 26---they've always been lousy. Quite frankly I have always been a proponent of the 12 second lift and shoot school. This usually gives me about 8 seconds on the sights and target, if the shot doesn't go---then it's back down and clear the wind out of my sails and start over. That makes for a lot of lifts until that "zone" thing happens; too bad it does not continue after target 4 or 5 in FP and you struggle through #6. I have seen twitches beginning to occur and that was a source of worry--- "it's the big one Weezie! "---nah just a normal thing that occurs as one gets wiser, not necessarily older---your body is telling you something---"hey dummy you're squeezing the sap out the grips" or "you are going to get that shot off if it's the last thing you do"---syndrome. I know a father/son combination with what they call a "hereditary twitch"---the curse of the Baskervilles---every time I ask them about this they are squeezing the grips excessively because they feel that twinge when they release the pressure. I think that if you do have this twitch you can develop the "the put the gun down dummy mental response" and avoid those disastrous fliers that just catch the lower right corner of the target. It's all mental as well as physical preparedness for these challenging events.

Elmas,

I am a youngster by comparison (47) but encountered a similar problem until recently.

Take it as read that this may NOT be the same issue, but it may be worth giving my solution a try.

Every ten shots or so (stochastic - but with about that frequency) my arm would twitch whilst still holding alignment and usually at the point of trigger release. I was very confident about my trigger control, until I mentioned this to a really good shooter I happened to be training with. He asked me when did I take up the first stage? The answer was, as I raised.

He suggested I didn't take it up until I was in the settle, and about to go into the final "release" phase.

I tried it, and I have never had that twitch again. Of course, another failure in my technique is now apparent, but that twitch has gone.

Give it a go. If it doesn't work, what-the-hey.

Best

Mike.

Mike S-J wrote:Elmas,


. I was very confident about my trigger control, until I mentioned this to a really good shooter I happened to be training with. He asked me when did I take up the first stage? The answer was, as I raised.

He suggested I didn't take it up until I was in the settle, and about to go into the final "release" phase.


Give it a go. If it doesn't work, what-the-hey.

Best

Mike.

Mike,
I learned the hard way not to take up the first stage from the start .

Any lapse in total concentration , and your shot goes off prematurely , I think someone on here mentioned exercising the trigger finger.
When I am focussed I actually only introduce my finger inside the trigger guard when I'm on the black ... and gingerly take up the first stage then , sometimes getting once or twice to the start of the second stage before a bold firm pull once the sight picture is right. that way I revise my sensation of the trigger finger joint and fingertip .. feel the trigger metal and now feel secure to take up the first stage and wait for the sight picture alignment to complete itself as I remind myself to keep the sights steady while the shot is getting off... All this of course is in a " perfect world" , ie before tiredeness sets in , or my mind starts wanting wander.

Elmas

.

In my opinion 8 - 12 seconds before releasing the shot is too long. You need to be younger (around aged 40) to hold steadily for that long.

It might be better to set your sights, and come down to the left or right of the target to the 6 o'clock hold, rather than coming down over the black part, as then you lose the sights - black against black.

Re the 2 stage trigger - once you are past the 60's you should not use a 2 stage trigger because you are losing your reflexes and co-ordination.
You can't do much about this except exercise with a tennis ball - catching and juggling. For trigger work go back to dry firing against a blank wall.

It is a good idea Not to do any hammering, or sawing, or working with spanners just before training!
See if any of these work.
Regards,
Alex L.

although i am in my twenties, i notice something similar too but if i properly warm up with some dynamic and static stretches before i start, the frequency of such twitching is greatly reduced as with the magnitude. perhaps you could try this if you are not already doing so.

Alex L wrote: Re the 2 stage trigger - once you are past the 60's you should not use a 2 stage trigger because you are losing your reflexes and co-ordination.
.

I only visit this site from time to time (maybe I should look in more often), but this is the first time I have seen anyone stating a preference, with their reasoning, for a certain type of trigger setting.

Alex's suggestion is certainly logical; does anyone else have any thoughts on the matter, either for or against? A few weeks ago when I posed the question of triggers, the concensus was "whatever suits you". Whilst no doubt very true, it was not much to chew on to make a choice.

I am unfortunately also on the wrong side of 60!

[quote="Alex L"]In my opinion 8 - 12 seconds before releasing the shot is too long. You need to be younger (around aged 40) to hold steadily for that long.

It might be better to set your sights, and come down to the left or right of the target to the 6 o'clock hold, rather than coming down over the black part, as then you lose the sights - black against black.


Never tried that one.... no real problem with black against black, only problem of course is the tendency for the eye to "stick" to the target and lose sight of the backsight aperture ! But I shall certainly try . One thing I have not lost with age .. is the ability to enjoy trying new things and new ways .

Perhaps I take a bit longer for a shot in your view because I tend to come down verrry slowly... but I am careful not to delay once I am in the sub six area ... The time is taken mostly to come down from above the black downwards. ((sometimes longer than 12 seconds... nearer 15 )). I have a little alarm clock on the shooting table .. it has a nice red second hand that jumps every second of the quartz movement... I time myself frequently ... and its always around the times I mention .



I would like to say here that trigger finger sensation is very important , and the more you tighten your hold on the grips the more difficult it is to 'isolate' the sensation of your trigger finger , esp at the middle joint where the squeeze should take place.
If I abolish the first stage .. I will have little to 'introduce' my finger to controlled and steady movement. I think the first stage is a good means of 'identifying the trigger point for the finger. once it is taken up completely and second stage resistance is felt , you are more secure to apply controlled but firm backwards pressure with the necessary confidence.

It is a good idea Not to do any hammering, or sawing, or working with spanners just before training!

Yes .. of course... and some stretches and exercising before training helps too.. but best of all to warm up the arm muscles... are the first ten or twenty shots !

Thanks Alex

Elmas

.

funtoz wrote:Elmas -

I think you may be referring to essential tremor rather than intentional tremor.
See your doctor, get your blood tested. Good luck dude.

Larry

funtoz wrote: I am a Doctor !! *smile* ... A surgeon , and I do get my blood tested every couple of years or so .. I would only consult with a Shooter Neurologist .. people outside the shooting world will be at an unfair disadvantage when dealing with this problem . Mostly trying to pigeonhole the condition into some known disease as is the custom of most doctors when faced with unfamiliar problems !!

I dont know of any Shooters around who are Neurologists by profession .. so I'll just look for 'old remedies' from fellow shooters till I find one !!

Elmas

.

Elmas,
Thank you for starting one of the most interesting and useful threads I have seen in some time. At age 70 (in a month) I exhibit just about all the problems mentiuoned here. I'm relieved to read that I am not alone in this.

re Mike S-J comment - I stumbled across this approach about a month ago. I used to take up the 1st stage at the start of the raise, now I take up when I am at, or just into, my settle. If the settle is a good one, I immediately start my trigger 'moving'. I have almost, but not quite, eliminated my Essential Tremor with this approach. Intense concentration on front sight alignment while maintaining trigger movement is, of course, required.

re 1 vs 2 stage triggers - I still prefer a 2 stage for precision because it gives me a window during which I can decide whether my settle is acceptable or is not and I should abort. Once I start the trigger moving I find it very difficult to abort.

While my reflexes and coordination are certainly not what they used to be - and they were never great to begin with - I can still deal with a 50 gm FP or 2nd stage AP trigger. I view trigger control as more mental than physical and the old neurons still seem to be firing OK. For me these issues have more effect on sway, body movement, tiring, muscle tone, etc. I try to work out with light weights and elastic bands once or twice a week.

Elmas - I exercise my trigger finger and establish proper placement while the pistol is still down in the ready position. Then I put that issue aside and start my raise. While some may view this procedure as dangerous, I have never had a premature release. Have to say, though, that I do not do this with my FP, and I have a reasonably long and heavy 1st stage on the AP.

I am with Bob Riegl on the 12 sec lift and shoot. About 2 sec to raise, in my case to the bottom of the card, 4-6 sec to align the sights and mentally prepare to shoot, then 4-6 sec to raise to my sub 6 settle and release the shot. When everything is right, I can shoot 10's 2 sec into my settle. My biggest problem is quickly recognizing when everything is not right and aborting.

FredM

Fred Mannis wrote:Elmas,
>> My biggest problem is quickly recognizing when everything is not right and aborting.

FredM

It is certainly my biggest problem too.... and most people's I should think !!

I wish someone would write and explain WHY we don't , or choose to ignore the suspicion that all is not well and proceed with the bad shot !


Elmas

.

[quote="Elmas] I wish someone would write and explain WHY we don't , or choose to ignore the suspicion that all is not well and proceed with the bad shot ![/quote]

Perhaps a survey of shooters to determine whether they believe the glass is half full or the glass is half empty?

fundamentals dont change with the age of the shooter. If your movement has increased, the size of your group should increase as well. I would advise YKAORa shooter to trust his,her hold and concentrate on execution of the. shot sequence,

2650 Plus wrote:fundamentals dont change with the age of the shooter. If your movement has increased, the size of your group should increase as well. I would advise YKAORa shooter to trust his,her hold and concentrate on execution of the. shot sequence,

I HAVE to disagree. As with most complex behaviours the outcome is the best viewed as the interaction between two (at minimum) 'curves'. One negative in slope (physical ability) and one positive in slope ( mental: experience, the building of control pathways, etc). The outcome is an optimisation curve where performance increases over time and eventually (usually) decreases. Ergo whilst your physical ability deteriorates it does not have to be manifest as enlarged groupings if your trigger control and release are getting better: this obviously depends on how old / infirm you are.