TargetTalk

I was wondering, if there are any signs that im "pushing" my son to much to shoot and practice and such, he goes to weekend compitions with the 4H and places 2nd... him and another shooter usually fight it out, but the other fella wins by a point or 2... Are there any signs that im pushing the kid to hard?
(me and my son share this account)

Thankyou
Jeff.

Talk to your son and ask him. If you sit down and say that you want him to do well but only if he enjoys it etc, you will find out what he thinks.

You don't say how much 'practice' he does (that should be 'training' not practice). You can ask him if he would rather do more or less practice, if he has other activities that he'd like to be able to do more of etc.

In the end only he can tell you what's too much but you should be able to tell if he enjoys it or not.

Rob.

When he explodes and throws his rifle out of his 2nd story bedroom window you'll know you've been pushing him too hard.

How often is he practicing?

Does he practice on his own or with a simple reminder or do you need to nag him to do it?

Does he complain about going to matches or really drag his feet getting ready for one?

Does he constantly forget equipment?

Does he really shoot at practice or is it just a social time for him?

TWP wrote:When he explodes and throws his rifle out of his 2nd story bedroom window you'll know you've been pushing him too hard.

How often is he practicing?

Does he practice on his own or with a simple reminder or do you need to nag him to do it?

Does he complain about going to matches or really drag his feet getting ready for one?

Does he constantly forget equipment?

Does he really shoot at practice or is it just a social time for him?

How often everyday, about 40-60 Rounds (Air rifle)

Usually a reminder, but some days...... i just wanna knock his head off.

He gets REALLY nevervous before a match (help?) Not really drag his feet, more of going slow to make sure everything is alright ( i did something right rasing him )

Well, about that... we dont have a Local Range anymore, the old one was in a store and that store closed down, and a 4h practice goes on for a few weeks before they have there shoot (they go by counties) and other than that its all basement alone time. he constantly texts when he shoots, i hate that. i tell him not too... but you know how kids are these days.

Thanks
Jeff.

I'm a 4-H coach. I have shooters from 9yrs old to 18. About 12 are very active, and another 12 that are occasional.

I have 3 practices per week (Tues, Thurs, & Sunday).
(I also have 3 daughters in the program, ages 11,13, & 15)

All the kids know that:
1) School and schoolwork come 1st, if it ain't done, don't complain to mom or dad if they don't bring you
2) I don't force them to be at practice ... even 3 times per week (in my opinion, especially for the younger kids) can burn them out. This is hard, especially as I am VERY competitive, and letting one of my own take a day off is hard, but I let them know I'd rather them take a day off than resent the time they put into it. Every kid is different. Going in and firing 30-40 shots without the concentration is counter-productive. If they are "just there" and not striving for each shot it's not going to help them.

I've stopped practice for kids on occasion that aren't into it that day. I try and make sure they know I'm not mad, but that I know they are not concentrating and see if they will tell me why. Many times I'll ask them for one more "good" shot .... where they concentrate and can call the hit ... doesn't have to be a 10 .... then stop

HOWEVER .... I let them all know that in my opinion:
a) 3 times per week is the minimum for continued improvement ... especially when they start shooting in the 500-520 range (3x20-Sporter)
b) 2 times per week will see them remain the same in the short term (about three weeks) and then they should expect to see a slight decline in their scores
c) 1 time per week, don't expect any improvement or consistency

QUESTIONS FOR YOU:
1) How old is your son
2) How long has he been shooting
3) What are his 3x10 or 3x20 score average(s) (4-H I'm assuming sporter)
4) Most important ... is he improving? ... not just scores here, but consistency as well

2nd ain't bad ... I can guarantee that if I put any of my kids up against someone like Emily Caruso, they'll place behind her....

Also ... cell phones are off (except mine) in the range. Since I have multiple shooters it is a distraction to others if someone's phone goes off.

QUESTIONS FOR YOU:
1) How old is your son
2) How long has he been shooting
3) What are his 3x10 or 3x20 score average(s) (4-H I'm assuming sporter)
4) Most important ... is he improving? ... not just scores here, but consistency as well


He is 14.

This will be his 2nd year, he started October of 05

3X10 is usually around 245 I know his best was a 272. 3x20, Im not sure we dont practice shooting that In state he shot a 484 though, (last March)

I think he is inproving, but i dont know for sure, as in 3 weeks ago, he was shooting 72-75 in standing EVERY time. Now he is about 76-82 (standing.) I believe that if you practice standing all the time, youll get better in all the othe posistions.

Thankyou for the Input.

Well every day is too much for starters - every other day is about tops IMO. And what is the point of shooting 40-60 shots - just for score ? Doing that every day is going to be boring and on it's own won't improve scores much if at all.

Training needs to be structured to work at developing areas of his shooting and improving techniques. There also needs to be an element of change to maintain the interest, i.e. doing different things each session. I would suggest you get hold of a coach who at least can start developing a plan and training routine, otherwise your lad will give up on it.

Rob.

The only thing you get if you practice and train WELL in standing is better in only that position. Each position has it's own demons to overcome. A few well considered & methodical shots are far better than a bunch of random shots flung downrange, whatever the position.

If he needs to text, I'd build him a pair of wobble boards and allow him to text only if he's standing on the boards. THEN, the phone gets put away, and shots get fired. But not both at once - we don't do that on the firing line EVER!

Don't allow yourself to live vicariously thru his practices &/or matches. If you feel the need to excel, take up rifle sports for yourself. It'll give you a slightly different perspective. Above all, it needs to be safe, satisfying and fun for your son. He might get a kick out of competing WITH (or AGAINST !) you or friends. Even without the formal range that you lost, a supervised basement session with family/friends every now & then could keep the spark burning.

PL, Wheaton.

Training doesn't consist solely of shooting. So training can take place 5-6 times a week without becoming boring. There's physical, mental and skill training. Mix it up and things should be good if he enjoys it. The idea of texting while on wobble boards is excellent.

As others have stated shooting 40-60 shoots for score is pretty much a waste of time. What other sport has practices like that, you need other things to focus on the skills required to shoot 10 after 10 after 10. Doing the same thing day in and day out and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.

The idea of texting while on the wobble board is excellent. If he needs to text he puts the rifle down and texts from the wobble board, or even when he's in his room and wants to text he uses the wobble board, he's training a skill and wouldn't even notice.

Thanks, and, anothe stupid question... How do you train the kid for skill and mental and such, he has enough muslce to hold that rifle for a month straight.

Again, how do you help train for skill and mentalk, instead of just shooting everyday ( i had a philosiphy that just got shot down)

I'm a pistol shooter but the same training philosophies apply. If you brake down the various aspects of performing a shot you can train each of them. The way to do that is to perform a normal shot cycle but concentrate on the element you're training. Be that foot position, gun position, lowering onto aim, follow through, smooth trigger release etc....

Mix that with some training drills and you have the basis of some interesting sessions.

Another thing 'you' can do is go on a coaching course to learn how to develope your son, and ideally some other youngsters in your area. This will not only help him, but help you understand what he needs to progress.

Rob.

Contrary to Mr. Stubbs opinion I'd be reluctant to advise you to become your sons coach, sometimes it works but usually it doesn't ( it's like teaching you wife, or kids to drives usually everyone ends up mad and frustrated). Also you asked if you are pushing your son, if you are his coach, you probably are more likely to push. As for mental training use the search function above there have been hundreds of threads on it. There are also lots of books, tapes and DVD's on the subject.

Lanny Bassham is one source of mental training material http://www.lannybassham.com/

I just received another book which seems to be really good in regards to mental training Mental Training in Shooting by Anne Grethe Jeppesen and Anne Marte Pensgardd. Really good book not a psychology text book, very down to earth and understandable with lots or useful excersises and information.

Richard H wrote:Contrary to Mr. Stubbs opinion I'd be reluctant to advise you to become your sons coach, sometimes it works but usually it doesn't ( it's like teaching you wife, or kids to drives usually everyone ends up mad and frustrated). Also you asked if you are pushing your son, if you are his coach, you probably are more likely to push. As for mental training use the search function above there have been hundreds of threads on it. There are also lots of books, tapes and DVD's on the subject.

Lanny Bassham is one source of mental training material http://www.lannybassham.com/

I just received another book which seems to be really good in regards to mental training Mental Training in Shooting by Anne Grethe Jeppesen and Anne Marte Pensgardd. Really good book not a psychology text book, very down to earth and understandable with lots or useful excersises and information.

Ive been hearing about a book called "Winning the Gold" thats what ive been looking for. And, I cant coach consistantly, i drive a truck, and am usually gone for 1-3 days at a time. And, Thankyou all again for helping with this. his old coach was a older man, his son went to the olympics but that was at the buisness that shut down. To bad, I was taught to shoot by a friend and in the army. My dad left my mother when i was 2. i got into shooting and hunting and fishing from a fwe of my friends in the army (good times ) Thanks again for the Help.

he had a compitition today, his mother had to take him ( i think a sloth would know more about competive shooting..) and he got a 3rd place with a 236, he shot a 253 in practice last night. i dont understand how you loose that many points.

Doesn't matter really how he gets to the match as can't coach while shooting anyway. As to practice probably 5 times a week max, Two of the girls that are in my daughters club both tell her 5 days a week, 40-60 shots. Concentrate on a particular item like trigger control, breathing, aborting the shot etc while in training mode. Coaches say 3 days week just to maintain level, but not going to improve much at that level of training. Differences in traning scores and match scores can go both ways. My daughter might practice at 350/360 and shoot 370+ in match. might also shoot 350, but generally shoots the matches better than she trains. Scores in training not really that important as long as working on a particular aspect of making the shot. The match just puts it all together. And then there is the pressure of the match that all kids do not handle equally, some better than others.
As to the two girls that try and help her, both on the National Development Team, so they must know something.

Two points. Training scores are not really that important. As mentioned when you're training elements of the shot process, you assess them not where the hole goes in the card - that's a secondary result. It's also a practice thing in matches. Nerves kick in etc and that gets better with more experience (and mental training).

Lastly my point about you becoming his coach is that it's ten times better than no coach. You can also help the other kids to improve their shooting at the same time.

Lastly it's very important that you are always positive with your lad. Don't look at the negative aspects of his shooting but praise the good bits. Sure you need to improve the poorer bits but treat them as areas to improve, rather than faults or bad bits.

Rob.

You becoming your kids coach could be ten times better than no coach or it could be hundred times worst than no coach. A coach is important to progress (still can be done without one though). In Europe there seems to be many more coaches than here in NA. I still stand by my comment that I would be very careful about becoming your sons coach, through some of your comments you expressed some frustration already, an outside coach can deal with these without it being personal, if you deal with them it will be personal. Your son will most likeley just view it as another thing your on his case about like taking out the garbage, cleaning his room or doing his homework.

This is a great topic and causes me much introspection.
I coach a 4-H team in my county and 3 of my own children are on the team. Some thoughts:

1) Early on I determined that if I was going to ask them to be their best, I had to commit to them be mine. Check into the NRA-CMP-USAS coach schools. Take the ASEP courses to become certified .... not just appointed. The ASEP classes reinforced some of my views, but also completely changed others. A great experience that really helped working with the kids.
(Note here: I have coached High School swimming in the past, and I wish I would have had the knowledge I got from the classes way back then)

2) My own kids, and any of the other kids in the program know that I want them to be at practice, but they can, at anytime opt out of one for any reason. They know that making practices are very important, but every once in a while they take a break away. The shooters that take a lot of breaks don't improve..... period.

3) All my shooters know that I'll be at practice whether they are or not. I've had a few where "coach" is the only one that shows that day .... I've used that time to do some testing with the rifles. ..... This has only happened twice in my three years doing this. If they know that you are there, they tend to be able to drag themselves in as well. If they believe in your commitment, they will make some commitments themselves. They also know that I will work with those in proportion to the time they come to practice ... I do what I can to "coach" them .... not just sit passively by and watch (babysit)

Does it take time .... yes. We hold three practices per week, and on average I'm there about 3 hours each practice. I don't let my older kids stand around too much .... If I have new shooters needing to learn a new position, guess who gets tasked to get a broom handle, a mat, sling and kneeling roll and go off in the corner with the new shooters? Having them be "role models" seems to help their commitment .... now they are a "coach" and someone is counting on them to help.

Anyway .... a ramble I know .... my $0.02

jhmartin wrote:This is a great topic and causes me much introspection.
I coach a 4-H team in my county and 3 of my own children are on the team. Some thoughts:

1) Early on I determined that if I was going to ask them to be their best, I had to commit to them be mine. Check into the NRA-CMP-USAS coach schools. Take the ASEP courses to become certified .... not just appointed. The ASEP classes reinforced some of my views, but also completely changed others. A great experience that really helped working with the kids.
(Note here: I have coached High School swimming in the past, and I wish I would have had the knowledge I got from the classes way back then)

2) My own kids, and any of the other kids in the program know that I want them to be at practice, but they can, at anytime opt out of one for any reason. They know that making practices are very important, but every once in a while they take a break away. The shooters that take a lot of breaks don't improve..... period.

3) All my shooters know that I'll be at practice whether they are or not. I've had a few where "coach" is the only one that shows that day .... I've used that time to do some testing with the rifles. ..... This has only happened twice in my three years doing this. If they know that you are there, they tend to be able to drag themselves in as well. If they believe in your commitment, they will make some commitments themselves. They also know that I will work with those in proportion to the time they come to practice ... I do what I can to "coach" them .... not just sit passively by and watch (babysit)

Does it take time .... yes. We hold three practices per week, and on average I'm there about 3 hours each practice. I don't let my older kids stand around too much .... If I have new shooters needing to learn a new position, guess who gets tasked to get a broom handle, a mat, sling and kneeling roll and go off in the corner with the new shooters? Having them be "role models" seems to help their commitment .... now they are a "coach" and someone is counting on them to help.

Anyway .... a ramble I know .... my $0.02

Alright, to start out, thankyou for spending time answering my question. I really apreciate it. Anyway, about the first Bold. What exactly do you mean By helping, he screams and kicks and yells when i try to touch the rifle, and makes fun of kids (his age or a lil younger or older) that have there parents pump (daisy 853 and 753) there rifles for them. I dont understand how to help ( Never shot competively, i think this is just awesome about how acurate some people are ) Yeah, i gave you another chance to ramble, Enjoy!

And, the 2nd bold print.

I know he got 150% of his help from a few fellows that helped put together the air rifle deal, when he closed down the store he just told us to " Hold on tight, the Bluffs Shooters Club will take over in a few " (never happened) and i think Actual Range Time is 3x more effetive than shooting in the same old basment day in day out. And, i was wondeing... If there is also anyway to reduce match preasure, he gets all worked up over a 7 in standing. ( id be happy just to hit the black) and my wife couldnt do a thing to calm him down, and not to mention ( we live in Nebraska, we Improvise!) He was shooting in the basement of a old American Legion Bar They estimated it to be around 40 degrees in there ( huge improvment over last year, you could see your breath.) Anyway, 1 Question. How can i help Reduce Match Preasure?

Thanks.
Jeff.

Wow, Jeff you've submitted an "interesting" question. Please don't take offense here ....

What exactly do you mean By helping, he screams and kicks and yells when i try to touch the rifle, and makes fun of kids

I hope it is not that bad. I tolerate no disrespect on the line ... towards any parent helping or towards one of their team mates. That would be the end of practice for that shooter ... if emotions cannot be controlled, there is no place on the line for someone with an air rifle.

That said ... I'm in your shoes as well. I've never shot competively ... I'll shoot in an open sectional now, just so that I can see how hard it is, and to remind myself of that. (Makes me feel good that I'm not terrible .... not great, but not terrible) I hang my targets and challenge the kids to beat me ... quite a few do ... OK most of my 4-H Seniors do.

In terms of you learning ... hey begin to learn. I started here: http://www.targetshooting.ca/reframeriz ... l_docs.htm Start with the Canadian Cadet training guides. The books "Ways of the Rifle" , "Air Rifle Shooting" and "The New Position Rifle Shooting" helped me a lot, but the most help were the coach classes I took.
Here as well:
Coach Program information can be found at this address:
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training ... chools.asp
USOC Coach e-Magazine subscriptions:
http://coaching.usolympicteam.com/coaching/ksub.nsf

I will agree with you, time at a range away from the house will probably do more than in the basement .... I went to our County Fair board, and they allow us to fire in one of the buildings for the price of keeping it clean the whole year .... we have to break during county fair, but that is a good break for the shooters. Our >>indoor<< range is below freezing in the winter (you can see the CO2 roll down towards the targets), and hot in the summer. This is an advantage. If my shooters can shoot well at home, when we go to another school's range or a gym for a major match it is like heaven for them. (yes we have heaters and a swamp cooler, but our building is large enough for 10 lanes, but it is basically a tin shed on a large concrete slab.

Since you are in Nebraska have you contacted the CMP JR directors? They are good folks.

Match Pressure .... different kids have it for different reasons .... Don't let the reason be you. As WRC said:

Don't allow yourself to live vicariously thru his practices &/or matches.

Remember this is "Youth Development" he has to face it on his own. I'm usually busy helping at matches ... I try and be available for my younger shooters especially during prone sighting in, but otherwise, I'm not in their sight.

Learning to handle 5-7 10's in a row is sometimes as hard as learning how to handle a "personality shot" .... out in the white part.

Another $0.02 here .... until the emotions are under control, there will be quite a few out in the white. The shooter must decide how they will react to any situation ... right then ... it is totally up to them.

Whew ... anybody else want to comment? The above works for me....
I know my "mentors" occasionally monitor target talk ... If Im out in left field ... chime in.