TargetTalk

Reading my ISSF Rules book on my way to work I came across the Paper target gauge definition for 25m center fire pistol;

25 m Center Fire Pistol
Measuring edge diameter: 9.65 mm (+ 0.05/-0.00 mm)
Edge thickness: 0.50 mm approximately
Spindle diameter: According to caliber being scored
Spindle length: 10 mm to 15 mm
To be used for: Center Fire Pistol Events

Now a Measuring edge diameter of 9.65 mm corresponds to .38, but a lot of center fire pistols are .32 which has radius which smaller by 0.74mm. ( .32 approximates to 8.128mm).

According to rule 6.7.14 Value of Shots;
All bullet holes are scored according to the highest value of the target scoring zone or ring that is touched by that bullet hole. If any part of a scoring ring (demarcation line between the scoring zones) is touched by the bullet, the shot must be scored the higher value of the two scoring zones. Such a hit is determined by whether the bullet hole or a plug gauge inserted in the hole touches any part of the outside edge of the scoring ring.

So do I conclude that all shots using a 32 that approach the line but do not touch it, must be checked with a gauge to see if the gauge, not the shot , touches the line?

JY

JulianY wrote:So do I conclude that all shots using a 32 that approach the line but do not touch it, must be checked with a gauge to see if the gauge, not the shot , touches the line?

Yes in theory, although experienced scorers will obviously be able to score the shot in the majority of cases without using a gauge.

It is the centre of the hole that counts, does not matter what caliber it is, .32 or .38.

And yes, holes punched by a .32" bullet does not need to actually touch the ten ring to count as a ten. Use the guage!

It has been my finding that when a .32 approaches but does not touch the next higher scoring, the gauge (NOT PLUG) will rarely if ever show it as the higher score. This comes from an awful lot of shooting with my former Pardini HP. As with all wadcutter bullets the holes look like they are cut with a very sharp knife. At 25 metres you will find more bullet "tipping" from wadcutters thereby rendering a slightly lopsided cut in the paper, still however a clean cut.

Bob Riegl wrote:It has been my finding that when a .32 approaches but does not touch the next higher scoring, the gauge (NOT PLUG) will rarely if ever show it as the higher score.

That certainly is not my experience, either as a shooter or a scorer.

I presume that by "the gauge (NOT PLUG)" you were just correcting the terminolgy.

Yes, the hole can be way out from the ten ring visually, but still count as a ten when using a guage. Been there done that - many times. This is valid also for .22 shooting, but not as much as with .32.

As I said before, it is the centre of the hole that counts.

David Levene wrote:I presume that by "the gauge (NOT PLUG)" you were just correcting the terminolgy.

Sorry, I meant to go on to say that it is referred to as a "plug gauge" in ISSF rule 8.5.7.3

Axel
"It is the centre of the hole that counts, does not matter what caliber it is, .32 or .38. "

Could you expand on this please?
As I see it, the gauge will center the shots holes, but it is the outside of the gauge [.38 ] that needs to touch the higher scoring ring to get the higher value. To amplify things, a .22 and a .38 can have the same shot center close to a ring, but the larger .38 can touch the ring where a .22 can miss it.
The ISSF C/F gauge is .38, whether the shot fired is .32 or .38. Doesn't this give a slight advantage to the 32 over the 38? Or am I off track here.

Mark

xtreme wrote:The ISSF C/F gauge is .38, whether the shot fired is .32 or .38. Doesn't this give a slight advantage to the 32 over the 38? Or am I off track here.

From a pure scoring point of view I think you are slightly off track. As Axel said, it is the centre of the hole that counts. If the centre is within .19" of a higher scoring ring then you get the higher score. It doesn't matter where the edge of the hole is, it's the edge of the gauge that counts. As you correctly say, that is the same distance from the centre of the hole no matter what the calibre.

xtreme wrote: The ISSF C/F gauge is .38, whether the shot fired is .32 or .38. Doesn't this give a slight advantage to the 32 over the 38? Or am I off track here.

Mark

Please explain I am not sure i follow your logic?

One thin i have see is the ISSF shop only does a 38 gauge but the rules say "Spindle diameter: According to caliber being scored " !

Not sure where i would get one for 32.


Julian

xtreme wrote:Axel
"It is the centre of the hole that counts, does not matter what caliber it is, .32 or .38. "

Could you expand on this please?
As I see it, the gauge will center the shots holes, but it is the outside of the gauge [.38 ] that needs to touch the higher scoring ring to get the higher value. To amplify things, a .22 and a .38 can have the same shot center close to a ring, but the larger .38 can touch the ring where a .22 can miss it.
The ISSF C/F gauge is .38, whether the shot fired is .32 or .38. Doesn't this give a slight advantage to the 32 over the 38? Or am I off track here.

Mark

Hello Mark!

You explained it well. But I don't agree about 32 giving an advantage over 38, not in the hole size perspective anyway.

Let's compare a hypothetical gun that is shooting needles to a .45" calibre - the needle gun would have a big disadvantage towards the 45 if not using a standardised gauge, holes needs to be much closer to the center to be counted as a ten. (Lets assume that the hypothetical needle gun and the 45 has the same recoil etc.)

One advantage 32 gives over the 38 is slightly less recoil. Marginal advantage I would say. IMHO, the big advantage is the pistol/revolver difference - I think it's much more difficult shooting a revolver than a specialized target pistol. Here opinions will differ, I'm sure... :-)

Cheers,
Axel

JulianY wrote:One thin i have see is the ISSF shop only does a 38 gauge but the rules say "Spindle diameter: According to caliber being scored " !

Not sure where i would get one for 32.

I suspect that they simply forgot to list the .32 gauge.

Any shop that sells ISSF style gauges will be able to supply a .32 spindle/.38 flange gauge.

Be careful though, I have seen shops selling gauges for scoring at actual calibre, these are not for use in ISSF matches.

David Levene wrote:

JulianY wrote:One thin i have see is the ISSF shop only does a 38 gauge but the rules say "Spindle diameter: According to caliber being scored " !

Not sure where i would get one for 32.

I suspect that they simply forgot to list the .32 gauge.

Any shop that sells ISSF style gauges will be able to supply a .32 spindle/.38 flange gauge.

Be careful though, I have seen shops selling gauges for scoring at actual calibre, these are not for use in ISSF matches.

I get my gauge s from the ISSF , so I will email them and see what they say

JY

I don't really get into what is often described as a "pissing contest" but the instant you put a plug gauge into the bullet hole you have destroyed the evidence of an "in or out " situation. By correct use of an optical gauge is the only correct way to determine shot value. These "plug gauges" with their built in magnifier, has always been a engineering joke in my mind as that magnifier has to viewed from an offside eye position and that coupled along with the inherent use of a metal bullet inserted into the bullet has so many errors built into as to render any "real" verdict is made mechanically and engineering wise improbable at best. The claim that the bullet hole "reading" by a .32 wadcutter and a .22lr bullet are the same---is IMHO a statement of pure and simple ignorance. The .32 wadcutter does not leave a grease ring---there the .22 leaves an inner ring and an outer ring of grease and that outer grease ring is what completes the statement--thats' not a nine ...it's a ....." That's why the Olympics have opted for electronic scoring many years ago to avoid these complications. As for the Nonius gauge that's another example of a laugher as it wreaks inaccuracy twenty miles wide, but if that's all that's available we must use those devices. In most competitions the plug is not placed in the target unless there is a challenge, the most recent trend is to opt for the use of optical gauges or comparators where the actual bullet hole is not disturbed and is compared against an laser image of the actual outline of the bullet hole. In these gauges the .22lr bullet hole is a double line to account for the outer grease ring as part of the scoring rings. I have spoken way too long about this topic as Europeans do use the ISSF Plug gauge and that's simply the fact---but remember one basic factor and that is we all have opinions and each of us is right (in our own minds) and therein the difference will be---Vive La Difference---

Bob Riegl wrote:....." That's why the Olympics have opted for electronic scoring many years ago to avoid these complications.

Well, that's one opinion. Rapid (and accurate) scoring and incorporation into the progressive results is a more likely reason.

Bob Riegl wrote:....." In most competitions the plug is not placed in the target unless there is a challenge...

Not at the competitions I go to - any shot hole that MIGHT need to be gauged, IS gauged! The exception being if there are overlapping holes, or some other good reason to not use a plug gauge.
Not using a plug gauge is a sure way to generate scoring challenges.

Spencer

Bob Riegl wrote:In most competitions the plug is not placed in the target unless there is a challenge

Not if I'm scoring.

If there is any doubt in my mind then the (unmagnified) plug gauge goes in. If I then have to use a separate magnifying glass then I will.

David
"If the centre is within .19" of a higher scoring ring then you get the higher score"

This is the point I was trying to get across, but I didn't explain it properly. The .19" is the radius of the 38, but the radius of the 32 is .16". Why is it that the 32 gauge has a .38" flange and not a .32" flange? [ other than being decreed by ISSF ]
A shot center of a 38 hole and a 32 hole may both be .18" from a line. Scored with the ISSF gauge, both are 'in'. but by calibre, and the actual hole,the 32 would be 'out' by .02".
This is what I meant by the slight advantage of the 32 in scoring.
It is also why a gauge should be used for close to the line 32 holes. The lead mark of a shot can be .03" from the line but still gauge as touching it.
Mark

The ISSF gauge rim is 9.65 mm, not 9.00 mm.

If working in thous ("), the .38 special within 11 thou from the scoring ring will gauge in - even though the shot hole does not touch the scoring ring.

Spencer

xtreme wrote:A shot center of a 38 hole and a 32 hole may both be .18" from a line. Scored with the ISSF gauge, both are 'in'. but by calibre, and the actual hole,the 32 would be 'out' by .02".

Yes I can see your point exactly Mark.

The fact is that the ISSF CF competition is all gauged at 9.65mm (.38), other competitions may have different rules.

My question is, if you don't have a fixed gauging size then what sized gauge do you use?

I have never seen a .32 that actually slugged at that size: .308 to .313 maybe.
As for .38, well .353 to .357?

Calibre names have no fixed relationship to the size of the bullet. IMHO the only fair way of scoring is to work from the centre of the hole. I believe that that there are pistol events where you get the higher score if the hole is half way across the line, no matter what the calibre. That must make scoring difficult. It's much easier to to make the scoring rings smaller and gauge at a fixed distance from the centre of the hole.

I know I should be using metric, but I used the imperial sizes to illustrate the point. [ and probably my age ]
Thanks to everyone for the clarifications
Mark