TargetTalk

Hello,

I don't remember exactly how I stumbled upon this great site (TargetTalk), but I've been reading around here for a couple months. What I read here inspired me to purchase an IZH-46M from the folks at Airguns of Arizona for myself for Christmas. I've played around with a couple Gamo air rifles before, but this is my first target air pistol. I've been having a lot of fun with it, and can see why everyone here is so into this challenging sport.

I didn't have any real 10M targets, so until yesterday I'd been using some targets that came with my Beeman target box I had for plinking with my Gamo air rifles. I mistakenly thought that the 25 Ft air gun targets that I had weren't too dissimilar from a 10M air pistol target. I was becoming a little frustrated because my scores seemed to be around 54-64. I didn't expect to be a pro overnight, but this seemed even harder than I had imagined! It was a pleasant surprise therefore when I received my thick pack of Edelmann targets from Pilkguns and found that the 10M targets are significantly bigger than my 25 Ft air gun targets! I know this belies my inexperience, but I thought others might find it amusing.



The tips on TargetTalk have been helpful, as I don't have a coach or anything. My first four practice scores on "real" targets have been 82, 80, 88, and 93 or 94. Am I scoring these right? On the last target, #074007, it's a little hard to see the holes. It looks like there are two in the inner circle (two 10's), and four right above that. I'm not sure if that cluster of four above the 1st ring represents three 10's and a 9 or four 10's?









I feel better about these scores than the ones with the wrong targets. Are these OK for a newbie? I'd like to find someone to coach me a little, so I don't inadvertently develop any bad habits. Anyone know any coaches in Riverside County, California?

Thanks!

Philip

Welcome to the sport Philip. With a 95 on your last target, you are certainly well on your way. You did it once, so you know you can do it again.

To add a little pressure, shoot in some local matches. If you can't find one, try a Postal Match - there are some listed on this site under 'Training Aids'.

Shoot well,
Fred

Hi,
Welcome to the sport.
What happened to 074003 and 074004?
You sure are on the right track. Take a look at your target, all this 2 o’clock hits will probably be from pulling the trigger. You are a right hand shooter? Let it go off by itself. Trigger is everything, learn from what happened and let the body respond by it selves. 100 one day and the next time you pick up the gun you shoot 15 mm to the left, do not adjust the sight but think, what do I do that cause the shift! Remember to relax your hand and arm, learn to know how it feels and take this feeling to your first match. Good luck
The truth is only 10 meters away!

Kent

What's your score for 60 consecutive shots in 105 minutes? Or are you cherry-picking the best cards?

Thanks for the comments everyone.

Fred, that's a good idea to try a Postal Match. Maybe after I can gain a little consistency, I'll have a go at it. If pressure affects my shooting like my golf, then I'll have my work cut out for me.

Kent, thanks for the tips. (Yes, I shoot right-handed.) My groupings seem rather large. 074003 was used for sighting in -- must have gotten mixed up with respect to 074002. 074001 is still in the package -- the packaging was so tight it was easier to slip the others out under it. 074004 is blank for some reason, must have gotten set aside.





I shot some more yesterday after my post, and the results weren't as good. I shot 77, 86, 77, 85, & 78. My groupings were all at or above the equator. I think I'm still getting used to the larger black spot (compared to the smaller 25 Ft target I foolishly started on). Tonight I shot one card and shot an 88. Interestingly, I did better with regard to the Y-axis, but was still a little spread out on the X-axis.



Anon1234, I haven't yet shot a full 60 shot set to simulate a match. I'm really new to this. I imagine a full 60 shot match will be fatiguing, both physically and mentally.

Thanks,
Philip

I think you are doing exceptionally well for a new shooter. Keep perfecting your trigger control and you will see those wild shots end up in the black. You seem to have a very good hold. I'd say in the nine ring. Keep working on the fundamentals, especially trigger control until they become habit and you will be shooting 560-570 or better before you know it. Get some matches under your belt as soon as you can. Practicing at home isn't the same as shooting in a match, as far as, the mental aspect is concerned.

Hi Philip and welcome to TT.

Thanks for sharing your results with TT and what good results so soon in your shooting career. I too started this discipline a few months ago, with the same pistol and in that time like you have gleaned much from the great bunch of subscribers here, without whom I wouldn’t have managed. I also don’t have a personal coach but rely on self education and have yet to compete at matches or postal.

Your test results are almost like those of mine, sometimes great horizontal and vertical strings and strays. This I have put down to poor grip and trigger control ie not having a consistently locked wrist and releasing the shot too soon or too late when in the aiming area and during the perceived steadiest part of the hold. There is so much to learn mentally, physically and mechanically and this for me is one of the main attractions of this very demanding, unforgiving and challenging sport.

As a rookie I can’t help experimenting with every aspect including completely stripping the pistol right down and trying a raft of different pellets. Every trigger parameter has been tweaked from maximum heavy trigger pull to one of just over 500g. From a crisp breaking glass very short sear engagement < 1mm second stage to a long “rolling” second stage and back again, all to satisfy my insatiable curiosity and this leads me to ask you the following personal questions if you care to respond but obviously don’t have to: -

a) Are you relatively young say under 40?
b) Are you a spectacle wearer?
c) Do you use shooting glasses and a blinder?
d) Have you modified the grip or palm rest in anyway?
e) What pellet or pellets are you using?
f) Have you tried the various rear and foresight combinations?
g) What aim area are you using – centre, 6 o’clock, sub 6 or some other?
h) How much practice do you do?
i) Do you weight train or do all round physical or mental exercise?
j) Do you love your Izzy?

Whatever Philip you seem well on your way and I wish you all the very best for the future and those consistently rewarding “higher” scores that are currently eluding you, for now at least. If it were easy peasy then there’d be no joy in it.


Cheers Torn Fibre

Misny, thanks for the encouraging words. I realize that I'm just beginning to scratch the surface with regards to technique, etc. But I'm having fun, and to me that's what's important at this point.

T.F., I'm liking my Izzy. At first it seemed really heavy, so much so as to make it a factor holding on the target, but after just a couple weeks of using it, it doesn't feel so heavy, and it's weight no longer seems to be an issue. I guess I'm getting a little better conditioned. I haven't done any specific weight training for shooting, but imagine that it would be helpful. It seems like shoulder and arm strength would be useful for maintaining steady aim. I wonder if there is an optimal body habitus for shooting? It would almost make sense that a shorter arm would be easier to hold steady? How tall and what type of build are most of the world class shooters, or is there any trend in that regard?

I haven't done much to my Izzy. I just got the courage a couple of days ago to Dremel and sand on the handle a little bit. I got tired of the sharp edges on my finger tips and wrist. It feels much better now. My trigger's still factory setting, and seems fine to my completely novice touch. Which trigger setting did you end up liking the best?

Philip

the only trigger adjustments i would recommend now is only if you are unable to pull it straight rearwards without affecting the sights. leave the trigger setting screws alone for a few months. you need to build up the ultra sensitive index finger shooters have before you can use and appreciate lighter triggers(esp a light 2nd stage). ive seen too many misfires due to having too light 2nd pressure(i was one of them!).

cheers and have fun :)

I would agree that you should not tamper with any of the trigger settings until you are completely familiar with each aspect of the mechanics and how they interrelate. The factory setting is generally suitable for most users.

I purchased my Izzy and it misfired several times during the first few days upon cocking which was very frightening to say the least, never mind the damage the pellet did to one of my kitchen wall units and a door. This was the main reason I had to find out why she was misbehaving and it turned out that the first sear, contact engagement distance was dangerously minimal and unstable, barely making contact. So I had to tweak the second stage creep to give 1mm travel, for safety reasons. She has never misfired since I am glad to say.

I did not mess with the rear sight setting for over a month before I realised that they were a mile out and this was confirmed doing bench rest shots. I was at the time naïve and believed that the pistol had been set-up by the Baikal factory for 10M. Further though this may have been the case, on reflection, I now believe it was tried out by several potential buyers whilst at the dealer’s shop – so in my case caveat emptor was quite appropriate.

Another warning and another reason why I had to do a complete strip down was because I had used a blend of silicone oil plus molybdenum disulphide throughout as I wasn’t able to ascertain the material used for the various seals. Hydrocarbon based products would ruin rubber based seals. Vitol and Nitrile seals are unaffected. I found that my sensitive trigger finger was able to detect the slightest imperfection during the second stage creep. This became evermore frustrating and more pronounced as I am one of those who does not wish to know precisely during the pressure curve cycle when the shot will release but prefer to be taken by surprise. After reading many threads about the misuse of silicone or silicon oils and their detrimental effects on metal to metal contact, galling, I came to the conclusion I had damaged the surface areas of the case hardened sears. After much effort cleaning innumerable times as silicone oil is like liquid glass and impervious to all manner of solvents, sear polishing and relube using “gun” oil the roughness has thankfully gone and hopefully will not return.

I also stripped her down so I could better understand how the poppet valve mechanism worked. Don’t forget Izzy needs to be lubed every 500 shots to keep her sweet and the velocity around 500fps using 7.0gr pellets. Keep her clean and away from dirt or dust as oil and dirt become a metal grinding paste.

The idea of using a long “rolling” second stage creep was to highly exaggerate the pressure curve in order to give the eye, brain, sight picture, and trigger finger time to align everything up for the “subconscious” release. I sadly reverted back to a breaking glass “safe” trigger setting as I took far too long on aim and have problems disengaging my conscious mind – it will happen one day when I least expect it. After seeing how champion 10M-rifle shooter Matthias Stich used a momentary reflexive trigger tap with an 80g pull I thought why not do the same with AP. Well AP isn’t AR and ISSF rules state pull has to be 500g minimum.

As for body type I would have thought that short arms and shorter shooters have a mechanical advantage when holding out the heaviest IZH 46M pistol at arms length. At 60 my 17.5 stone weight and a shoulder height of 1.4M lead me to believe I have been genetically blessed with good upper body strength and I did a 350kg power leg press from cold not too long ago, however, my hypertension and obesity would indicate otherwise.

I made a new palm rest, as I didn’t want to ruin the original, which was digging into my wrist and causing much pain. The new one is perfect and I hope to make a new right side grip. My grip is also 60mm wide and should be 50mm for ISSF compliance.

Comfort is everything as is having loads of fun. It is far too easy for one to get lost in the minutia of analysis, sometimes……..


You might find this site of interest www.chris-gb-shooting.co.uk

Cheers Torn Fibre

Welcome to the sport. Along with all the other advise, you might try putting one target behind the target you are shooting and keep it their for 5 or 6 targets at a time. It might help review trends to you, i.e., trigger control issues. Good luck and keep at it.[/list]

Guest & T.F., I think I will leave my trigger settings alone for now. I'm not too keen on misfires! T.F., you had two with factory settings?! That must have been quite unsettling. I'm glad noone was hurt. I keep wondering how long it'll be before I shoot myself in the foot while relaxing prior to a shot!

T.F., my sights were way off from the factory too. I had adjust the rear sight nearly all the way to the left of the pistol. With regard to lubrication, are the seals in the Izzy rubber? After the first 500 pellets, I put 3 drops of RWS "Air Chamber Lube" into the vent hole. I have another bottle of RWS oil called "Spring Cylinder Oil" on which is written, "Apply sparingly to mainspring barrel pivot pin and cocking lever." This is apparently air rifle lube, but the latter should be OK for trigger and cocking lever hinge points, right?

T.F., I'd be interested to see a picture of your grip modifications. I agree the stock palm rest is uncomfortable to the wrist.

Lanning, I'm going to have to try your suggestion to put another target behind the target to observe trends. By the way, how many pellets is one usually supposed to shoot per target? I thought (and have been shooting) 10 per target, but some of the postal matches I've been looking into say 5 per target.

Thanks,
Philip

philipnow wrote:By the way, how many pellets is one usually supposed to shoot per target?

That depends on whether you are training or shooting in a competition.

If training then shoot as many shots per target as you feel happy with. If you can still see where all of the shots are going and the holes are not a distraction then why change the target.
If you are shooting a competition then you shoot as many shots per target as the rules for that competition say.
Under strict ISSF rules (8.15.0) it's one shot per paper target.

If you are using returning targets then, to establish a routine, bring the target back to you, take the target out of the carrier, put it back in and send it away for each shot. You will then be ready for 1 shot per target.

I have tended to shoot more rather than less shots per card of late, depending on what kind of training I'm doing. A lot of training doesn't require scores and you can get the idea from the group. That said I still think you need to be able to spot each individual shot within reason and so for me I tend to shoot 10 shots per card. If I didn't have electronic target changers I'd maybe drop it to 5. One training drill I do does require exact scores and for that I may shoot as few as 3 or 4 if I start obscuring the scoring rings too much.

Rob.

Philip,
You will get to a point that any more than 5 shots per target will become hard to score. (Sometimes less on a really good day)

I shoot for score maybe once a week to see how much progress my drills have accomplished.

Keep at it,

Lanning Hochhauser

Hi Philip

Have answered your PM today using 2000 words where 20 would do :-) HTH

Cheers Torn Fibre

David, Rob, & Lanning, thanks for the answers regarding shots per target. Wow, I didn't know it was only one shot per target for ISSF competition. You guys must have really tight groupings if you have difficulty determining scoring with only 5 pellets. I could shoot 20 pellets and see just fine... LOL.

T.F., Got your PM.

Philip

for an example of what is achievable head over too issf.tv and browse the livescores the groupings are sometimes shown.

http://streljastvo.vogon.hr/livescore.aspx?eid=1

try clicking on them and esp check out the chinese and koreans.

Heres my Izzy...and a sample of a recent target.

Ernie the Eyeball

Nice grip on your Izzy, Ernie. I like the stippling. What did you use to make the stippling? Good shooting too!

Philip