Elbow orientation

[Guest]

I've noticed that different AP and FP shooters have different orientations of the elbow of their shooting arm. Some seem to have the bicep pointing straight up, with the elbow joint oriented up and down. If they were to bend their elbow their hand would go straight up. Others (myself included) have a more left-to-right orientation of the elbow. If I were to bend my elbow in the shooting postion my hand would come to my chest.

Are there any advantages to one position versus the other, or is it strictly a "personal preference" issue?

[Tomack]

I asked that very question to one of the nations champions and his answer was not up, nor not down. I believe it was in the interest of potential injury to the elbow.

[Guest]

what i found was that there would be pain in the elbow if its left pointed up. i also noticed that such shooters seem to overbend in that position and it seems unnatural. however rotating it such as what you do resuts in excessive tension and also a lowered ability to lock the wrist joint. i feel that somewhere in the middle or around a 50-60 degree angle is best. my 2 cents. this is my finding which i have yet to comfirm with someone more knowlegable.

[pgfaini]

As a related question, Recent eye surgery has made it necessary to switch to my left eye. I've decided to keep holding the pistols in my right hand, and am now keeping my wrist and elbow locked straight, in the normal position, making it necessary to twist my upper torso at the waist to line up the sights with the target.

This is causing some lower back, and neck muscle strain, which I'm expecting will pass as the ligaments stretch and the muscles strengthen.

My question to others who are "cross shooters"("cross aimers"?) is: Do you cock your wrist to align the sights, or twist your torso as I am doing?
Thanks,
Paul

[David Levene]

Do you cock your wrist to align the sights, or twist your torso as I am doing?

Why don't you get a set of grips with the correct offset, probably only a few degrees, to allow you to do neither.

[F. Paul in Denver]

I have been cross dominant for so long that I'm unaware of anything special I do to accomodate the right hand/left eye combo.

However as I experiment in moving the gun sights back and forth to line up with the dominant and non dominant eye, it seems that the only adjustments I make is moving the shooting arm laterally until the sights line up along with a very slight adjustment of the head. I see no movement in the wrist or elbow position.

As David has suggested, a properly formed and fitted grip may be the key.

I am convinced that the best and most effective alternative to spending alot of time with a very skilled custom grip maker, is to modify the grip yourself with lots of trial and error. It's well worth the time and effort.

Back and neck pain should never be part of the shooting experience. If it is, your stance is neither relaxed or comfortable and ultimately counter productive.

[Paul Ha]

Paul,
In the '80s when I was a right-handed, left-eyed conventional pistol shooter, I used a 45 degrees stance, moved my shooting arm over center slightly to my left and let my neck take up the rest of the required sighting adjustment, with a very slight twist in the wrist --- (I don't think the 7 degrees bias grips were available at that time).
I think the slight twist in the wrist somewhat mimics the "drop wrist hold so prominent in FP grips" --- it applies a strain to the wrist that, after awhile, serves as muscle memories....besides being a tad more resistant to recoil. (I eventually broke 2600 in conventional before taking up AP and FP.)
Back then, I was often asked by the shooter on my right, "Why are you looking at me when you shoot?" (Nowadays, I shoot left-handed and left-eyed due to an unsuccessful right shoulder surgery.)

[Richard H]

Your elbow postion has a lot to do with your natural mechanics as well.

My elbow postion is down and to the right (right handed shooter) so if I flex my arm upward from the shooting postion my hand is about 30 degrees to the left from vertical. I've noticed a lot of female shooters elbow's almost point straight down and they get this bow in their arm.

[pgfaini]

I've recently fine tuned the grips on my 162E so the sights come up in perfect alignment with the "closed eyes" test. This was a few weeks ago, when I was still using my right eye. They still come up aligned with my left eye, but I have to turn my neck to sight over my right hand. If I move my arm to the left, I'd have to rotate the pistol quite a bit to avoid turning the wrist. I guess it's another session with the "Quick Wood". :>)

Yesterday, when training with my TOZ outdoors, after about 40 shots, I found my lower back and neck muscles getting a little stiff. I "wear" my TOZ, just letting it hang loosely, and touching the trigger, which is set at about 9g. It was a bit windy, and I had to raise the gun several times for many of the shots. I used up the entire two hrs to finish, I usually take less than 1-1/2 hrs.

I've not had any problem with the Morini, and I usually train once or twice a day, a full 60 shot course each time. This is in my heated basement. Maybe the cool wind outdoors yesterday, was part of my problem.
I was just wondering if anyone has had luck cocking their wrist to the right, which I've always considered a no-no.

I'll see if the problem goes away, and if not, I'll start working on the TOZ grips.

Thanks for the input,
Paul

[2650 Plus]

I wandered around until I realized that I was using my should muscles differently , some times on shots in the same match. Then I watched a FP shooter shoot a 580 with the pistol rolled to the right so far that he had welded his sights on to the left side of his pistol barrel. Many fewerer muscles were involved in holding the pistol in firing position with the sholder rotated downward and the elbow flat . This is the position that would cause the arm to bend straight up. It worked for me. See picture in AMU pistol guide. Good Shooting Bill Horton