TargetTalk

I had to learn a better relaxing technique due to a back problem. Back pain persists but I'm learning to cope and adjust. Doctors are on the situation. I did adjust pretty well. Along the way I started using the same eyes closed approach to setting up my shot. Below is what I have come up with that seems to work very good so far. Notice that there is little reference to physical details on alignment and triggering. The physical skill part is supposed to be there already. Most of shooting is mental you know...


Setup
Align with target
Grip (load etc for match)
Ready (position)
Breathe (not so deep that it distracts)

Now the mental part....

Close eyes
Think comfort
Think relax
Breathe
Get thinking over with

Feel steady body (it does not have to be really steady, just feel)
Feel steady arm
Feel steady gun
Feel aligned sights (everything is there except raise, see sight, shoot)

Raise
Feel Aligned
Turn head
Open eyes
See and feel things proper*
Look at sight
Fine tune and press
Keep seeing and feeling...

*In the list, when I open eyes, I try not to judge. Just do the shot. Eye on sight, press...

Consider this:
Intense focus is too much in the conscious.
Or how do we focus without thinking too much.


Comment? Your thoughts on this?

jackh wrote: Consider this:
Intense focus is too much in the conscious.
Or how do we focus without thinking too much.


Comment? Your thoughts on this?

Nothing wrong with that, you must occupy your <conscious> mind with something otherwise it will wander off and do it's own stuff - that won't be good for shooting.

I kind of try to focus but in a trance like way when I'm doing the final settle on to the aiming point. Kind of like being out of your body a bit. I can sometimes do it but not consistently but if you get it right the results can be superb.

Rob.

[quote="RobStubbs"]

I kind of try to focus but in a trance like way when I'm doing the final settle on to the aiming point. Kind of like being out of your body a bit. I can sometimes do it but not consistently but if you get it right the results can be superb.

Rob.[/quote]

Good. I guess in this trial shot plan my "trance like" mind set begins with "feel steady body", and moves out to the gun. Eyes are closed. It's probably easier to clear the mind at the time when there is the least baggage. When I open my eye and see the gun almost perfectly aligned I do feel sort of in a trance if I did truly "feel" everything into place. I'm going to see where this leads me.

Jack,
Some interesting steps I need to think about adapting/adopting, especially the feel.... I am sort of doing this, but not deliberately.

Some similarity to my process-
......
Turn head
Close eyes
Feel Aligned
Raise
Open eyes
raise/settle
Look at sight
Fine tune and press
Keep seeing and feeling...

I try to keep my mind empty and simply react to what I see when I open my eyes. I can almost alway do this when shooting shotgun - see the bird, raise the gun, shoot - but find it more difficult with pistol. Too much time. When I'm shooting well with the AP I am shooting quickly but don't feel rushed. I notice that when I am not shooting well I shoot slowly - perhaps 90-100 min for a match.

The only dissagrement I have is with when you initiate positive pressure on the trigger. I am well aware of the concept being propounded of allowing the sub counsious to cause the release of the shot. I dont subscribe to that methoud and use and propose. starting the pressure on the trigger with a mental command . I train my mind to think about how the sights are supposed to appear and tell my trigger finger to keep moving as long as I am consentrating on sight alliognment. I never think about the trigger finger again until after the shot has fired. By compartmenting the mental process, Moving precisly fron one step to the Inext I can recognise when my mind is off sequence and abbort the shot.I do not expect to abbort any shot but do the instant I recognise a departure from my shot plan. This is not a critisisim.Just another way of gitting the ten. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Jeeze Bill there you go again beringing up more "oldies but goodies!"

This is a lengthy discussion Ed, myaself,a nd a few others had a while back.

The "trigger moves and drives sights" vs. "sights move and drive trigger" argument.

If I remember correctly it ened up at:

1) Some people describe it one way, some people describe it the other way
2) There is no real way to actually determine what's really happening
3) The "two different ways" are probably "the same way" in actuality; but the two "different" types of people are just using different words/descriptions

So what we might have here is a classic "think of it whatever way makes most sense for you individually" situation.

When Ed convinced me of the "truth" of the "trigger drives the sights" philosophy, I started fooling around with stuff and for me, personally, after an adjustment period I figured out that I could look at the terminal part of the shot process (last 200 milliseconds) either way- and it woul.d look exactly the same and I would get the same results.

I don't know, Bill; this seems to me to be kinda like a "religious" argument vs a "technique" argument at this point?

Steve Swartz

Steve Swartz wrote: 3) The "two different ways" are probably "the same way" in actuality; but the two "different" types of people are just using different words/descriptions

So what we might have here is a classic "think of it whatever way makes most sense for you individually" situation.

You may be right about this being different views/descriptions of the same process. But there are still issues -
I am going to train differently if I want to develop and use "trigger moves and drives sights" than if I use "sights move and drive trigger" which is the way most of us learned to shoot.
How do I decide which view/process suits me? Spend six months on each? You say you spent the time and found them equivalent.

Also, as I mentioned in another thread, I am not convinced that I can apply the "trigger moves and drives sights" process with equal success to a wad gun with a 3.5 lb trigger and a FP with a 50 gm trigger. Bill has given me some food for thought with his comment on compartmenting the mental process as a way to keep from firing the FP too soon.

To respond to Steve. The trigger finger is given a mental command to start moving and then I have a limited amount of time to get the pistol as still as I can in the aiming area. Next the mental effort shifts along with eye focus to the sights issue . Like you, I put 100% mental and physical effort toward perfecting sight allignment until the gun fires . The only real difference I identify is that you seem to be suggesting a magic way to fire the shot and I contend that having a specefic time and technique to initiate trigger pressure. and cooridinate that by timing the firing of the gun with when I am within the period of stillest hold and dee.pest concentration on sifgt allignment. Are you sure that this generation of shooters are dedicated enough to expemd the physical and mental effort necessary to win in world level competition. Or you just trying to find an easy way to shoot pretty good. In either case, please do not try at this time to deal with these straing ideas. You mentioned that you are on your way to a competition.I believe you should be concentratihg on stabilizing your approach before the match. Only talk about how you shoot a shot and write about the same . This is thee time for practice not training.

Jack, just skipped over it, looks like shot process.
from this you can work on shot plan, most parts are muscle memory, but some will be important to you.
shot plan is a simple set of instructions. maybe three.

not the entire shot process.

post new shot plan, see what that looks like.

imho

bryan

bryan seems to be saying simplifing is the way to go, and I think i'm beginning to agree with him. After all the routine work is done I relax, raise the pistol above the aiming bull,Relax some more and let the pistol settle toward the aiming area, First visualization is of finger moving, Next is gun still in the aiming area , and last is sight allignment. And , folks that is all there is.

bryan seems to be saying simplifing is the way to go, and I think i'm beginning to agree with him. After all the routine work is done I relax, raise the pistol above the aiming bull,Relax some more and let the pistol settle toward the aiming area, First visualization is of finger moving, Next is gun still in the aiming area , and last is sight allignment. And , folks that is all there is. Good Shooting Bill Horton