TargetTalk

Our club is in the throws of organising an AP rapid fire event - standard - as we have enough LP 50 owners/users to make it interesting. No-0ne knows anything much about this event other than its a standard AP target and it's 5 shots in 10 seconds from the pistol being raised from table or bench. No minimium trigger weight.
Sorry for being a bit nieve here, but am I likely to develpe any bad habits if my main aim (no pun intended) is to become a very good precision AP shooter? There's so much written about the importance of the subconscious trigger release and I'm deducting that in rapid fire, because it's 5 shots in 10 seconds including the lift, we'll be consciously pulling the trigger? (I've never seen a rapid fire event, and about to watch a DVD tonight)
Also, does anyone have any information on the type of scores that are shot during these events? In fact any information that would make this program work and be more intersting and more understood would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

John,
Where is your club located?

Fred

Hello Fred,
Jakarta, Indonesia.

I was going to say have LP50, can travel. But that's a bit too far :-)

John wrote:There's so much written about the importance of the subconscious trigger release and I'm deducting that in rapid fire, because it's 5 shots in 10 seconds including the lift, we'll be consciously pulling the trigger?

Hi John,

I'm one of those subconscious trigger proponents (in case you hadn't noticed - smile). In fact, I'm even a proponent of letting the subconscious take care of other things too. Just because you are attempting to do something rapidly, doesn't mean it has to be done consciously. On the contrary, the subconscious can do some pretty quick things before your conscious knows they happened. Consider the act of blinking your eyes if something comes close to your face. This is a subconscious action due to a threat that you learned long ago. You don't have to consciously decide to blink. You just blink.

Why can't you do complex rapid things subconsciously? My belief is that you can, and if you train properly, you can peform the entire routine by simply telling yourself to fire and letting the subconscious complete the string. I do that in my sustained fire portions of standard pistol as often as I can. I also do it for my International Rapid Fire, as well. Come to think of it, I'm doing it with my typing right now, too. (I only scored about a 94 on the typing, though. I had to correct a couple of errors.)

So, although you may at first learn the course by conscious activity, I think the sooner you let it become subconscious the quicker your improvement, but then, I'm one of those proponents. Good luck with your new endeavor.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

John Ariani wrote: "...it's 5 shots in 10 seconds from the pistol being raised from table or bench."

I would have assumed that the shooter would start from the "Ready" position (as in 25m events) but I found no reference to the "Ready" position in the ISSF rules for the 10m Five Shot Air Pistol event.
Rather, Rule 8.20.2.2 states:
"Before each series the shooter must lower his arm. The pistol may be rested on the bench or shooting table."

Since the rule states the pistol may be rested, it suggests to me that the pistol does not have to be rested and thus the shooter could assume the "Ready" position prior to the "Start" command. That would provide a slight time advantage over starting with the pistol resting on the table or bench.
I seem to recall that at the CAGP, on at least one occasion when I was there, that shooters did start from the "Ready" position for the Five Shot Air Pistol event, but I can't remember whether it was the Five Target event or the Standard event.
Any ISSF official (or experienced competitor) able to clarify for me whether or not it is acceptable to be in the Ready position while awaiting the Start command in Five Shot Air Pistol?

Have you tried coming to the 25 M 'ready position' on a 10 M range? If you can do it either you are fairly tall, or the bench is fairly low...

Spencer

I assume from the above that the pistol can be either on the bench or in the ready position. It makes no practical difference, some see on the bench as an advantage since your resting a bit more.

As Ed says you don't snatch the trigger 5 times it's just a quicker smooth release than in precision.

Rob.

The excellent/good results for these events would be :

Rapid fire (8 series of 5 shots)

Excellent : 26 - 32
Good : 20

The bullseye is the normal AP10 size, but you need to shoot inside the 9 to get the point.

Standard pistol (8 series of 5 shots)

Excellent : 370 (you need to stay inside 9 ring)
Good : 340 (you need to stay inside the 8 ring)

Rapid fire and standard pistol is the precision shooting limited in time. I.e that all fundementals of precision shooting apply. (Including how you release the shot).

At first, 10 sec doesn't look much, but in fact it is quite enough.

Usually it gets 3 to 4 sec to release the first shoot and then aprox. 1.5 for each additional shot.

- Ned

Spencer wrote:Have you tried coming to the 25 M 'ready position' on a 10 M range? If you can do it either you are fairly tall, or the bench is fairly low...
Spencer

Perhaps a combination of the two :-)
I'm 5'11" and the the benches/tables at the airgun matches I attend (Western Canada) are about 31 inches high. I can hold the Ready position without my pistol's barrel touching the bench.

I certainly can't at almost all ranges I shoot at. I'm 5ft nothing and would need to lower most benches anywhere up to a foot ! (or stand on a box ;-) )

Rob.

Thank you all for the great feedback. I watched a DVD last night of rapid fire (not AP though) and just couldn't believe how the target could even get hit. This was an ISSF event, with the 5 turning targets and the 8,6 and 4 second series. I've only participated in and seen AP. This was amazing. How in the hell do they even hit the target. I'll go back a re-read Ed's post again for starters, but to be able to line up the sights and then take a shot and then move onto four other targets and do the same seems impossible. Obviously not, but didn't you think the same thing when you saw this for the first time? AP on one target will be much easier than five targets, but it normally takes me 6 - 8 seconds to lift and get settled, so I'm in for some timing changes. Scoring? You mentioned 'getting a point' and 'inside the 9 ring'. Can I clarify that the shot must be 'inside' and not touching the 9 ring line, and you get one point for the hit whether it's a 9 or 10?? I got confused when I then saw 'excellent score of 370', which doesn't match the one point description. Maybe there's somewhere I can visit (web) to see some rules.
AP rapid fire will bring some nice variety to our club and should enhance our precision shooting if we do it properly. Thank you.

John,

If you care to e-mail me or leave a PM on this site I can pass on the basics of scoring and techniques for RFP, rather than go into an explanation on the board.

Spencer

John,
It can appear daunting but like everything else, you don't suddenly jump into shooting 5 shots in 4 seconds. My approach is roughly to get the first shot off in 3, 2 then 1 second for the 8,6 and 4 sec series. You can therefore train the one shot in x seconds and build it up from there; moving on to 2 cards then 3 etc. I would advise sticking to the slowest series to begin with but once people get the hang of it, most can hit all targets most of the time.

To get to the levels you see requires a hell of a lot of practice, which is not something we in the UK can get :( (not with .22's anyway)

Rob.

The rules can be found on this URL :

http://www.issf-shooting.org/rules/engl ... 5_2nd.html

Rapid fire, or as it refer in the rules as "10 m Air Pistol Five Target Event
" is shot on the falling targets.

You can see the target system on the following URL :

http://www.pilkguns.com/fallingplates.shtml

The bullseye is a black metal plate with a center hole of 30 mm in diameter (aprox. size of 9 ring).

To score, you should shot inside the hole. It counts as one point.

Usually, the target system comes with interchables plates, so you can use the one with 60 mm hole. Maybe you should start with a bigger hole. After some practice, you'll find it easy to "fall" the plate, so you can move to 30 mm hole.

"370 as excellent score", I refer to 10 m Air Pistol Standard Event. You are shooting on standard AP targets. Just FYI, 371 was 1st place on French nationals 2006.

When I saw the first time rapid fire event, I found it amazing too. Aferwhile, you realize that is just a question of practice.

A quick training plan.

The first step is to build the good sight alignment.

In the front of the target, raise your hand above the target. Make the sights alignment, lock the position and slowly put your hand down. When passing above the bullseye, get the mental picture of the target.

Put your hand down in 45 degree position. Wait for couple of seconds. Look somewhere between the firing line and target.

Raise your hand. Don't move your head. The pistol shoud come in the level of your eyes. "Lock" your eyes on the sights, and keep raising the pistol. The movement should be smooth, faster in the begging and slower at the end.

Once in the aiming zone, the sights should be aligned. Stay in a position for at least 3 seconds.

Once you are confident with a movement, you can start with trigger operation in dry fire.

Keep in mind that is not a trigger movement which si releasing the shot, it is a muscular tension.

In down position, put the finger on the trigger and apply the slight presure to build the muscular tension.

Now, when you raise the gun and come close to aiming zone, start pulling the trigger and continue the movement until the shot releases. Keep in the position (followtrough). The sights should not move. Keep your finger on the trigger and slowly release it.

If you release the trigger before you expected, you should feel suprise effect. That's exectly what you want. Don't bother if the sights are not "perfectly" aligned with a target. Slowly, they will come in place.

If you are not suprised any more, it means that you are either tired or you are releasing consciously.

Once confident with a dry fire, move with live ammunition and the second shot. Always follow through. Do not aim, concentrate only on your sights.

Do not check your targets until you can release 2 shots without moving your sights. Once ok, 2 impacts should be not more then 2 cm apart.

Move to the 3 shot. This time you should start to pay attention to the rythme of shooting. The shots should be evenly spaced, always in the same rythme, don't hesitate to release the shot. It's like the music.

Until so far, you should be not concerned where did you hit the target. What counts is the grouping. Check the grouping, if tight, adjust your pistol settings. If not ...

At this point you shoud consider your ailming zone (center zone or bellow the bullseye).

Move to 4 and 5 shot release. Always follow through. The movement of your finger is smooth.

- Ned

Once again, many thanks for all the help and tips. Spencer has sent me a wealth of info and contact sites by PM. Thank you Spencer. It sounds like a lot of fun and we're starting our program middle of next week. Lots of time for dry firing practice inbetween, and watching the DVD over and over. It's quite a spectacle to watch.

Hello John,

I found a nice site for training tips regarding timed fire and rapid fire (originally for standard pistol but should be applicable for AP as well) it can be found at URL http://www.targetshooting.ca/reframeriz ... aining.htm Follow the link to "technical training pistol" and then "standard pistol match training". There you'll find some MP3 files to train the rhythm - and other useful hints along the way.

cheers,
Axel

Here is some clips from rapid AP shoot in Sweden and hosted by Ragnar Skanåker. The time is 6s.

Goto link: http://www.tvinternet.se/page/pistolskytte/ and click on 2 juli, 16.30 (57:26) and about 16:30 in to the movie the competition begins.

It is in swedish by it can be fun to watch anyhow.

Happy new year to you all.

Thank you for this extra lot of information. We're starting our first competition early into the New Year, should be lots of fun.