OK, I've read the repeated exhortations to focus on the front sight, not the target.
I never really thought about where I was focusing. I was shooting around 90-91% with my IZH-46. I've REALLY tried to force myself to focus on the front sight. Over the course of a few sessions, my average dropped into the mid/low 80's. This evening I said threw in the towel and deliberately focused on the target. Average popped back up to ~91.
I assume that what's happening is that I'm subconsciously maintaining sight alignment while focusing on sight placement. When I try to focus on the front sight I get spooked by the amount of visible movement in the sight alignment, and it shatters my confidence.
Does anyone here have an informed opinion as to whether I'd be better off trying to force myself to focus on the front sight? Am I limiting my long-run potential by focusing on the target? Is it pretty much universally accepted that focusing on the target is a no-no?
Thanks!
Front sight focus
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
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Re: Front sight focus
Anonymous wrote: I'd be better off trying to force myself to focus on the front sight? YES
Am I limiting my long-run potential by focusing on the target? YES
Is it pretty much universally accepted that focusing on the target is a no-no? YES
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titantoppler
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:02 am
Do keep in mind that aiming area is the accepted norm for shooting, not aiming point. As long as the sights wobble within an acceptable area, it's fine.
Though I would like to know, is the score decline normal? I experience the same problem of the score declining after concentrating on the front sight and it really shakes my confidence, though I'm trying to resist the temptation of focussing on the target.
How do I prevent or reverse this score loss?
Though I would like to know, is the score decline normal? I experience the same problem of the score declining after concentrating on the front sight and it really shakes my confidence, though I'm trying to resist the temptation of focussing on the target.
How do I prevent or reverse this score loss?
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Fred
titantoppler wrote: I experience the same problem of the score declining after concentrating on the front sight and it really shakes my confidence,
Just a guess from a distance, but I would suspect that it's actually the reverse that is happening: the newly perceived sight movement shakes your confidence, which badly affects your triggering, and that causes your scores to decline. Training on a blank target will allow you to see what is really going on, and will allow you to "use the sights as a trigger purity indicator" (thanks to Ed Hall).
HTH,
FredB
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LkP
Re: Front sight focus
I was in the same situation 2 months ago: August i try to train only on blank target focusing on front sight; 1st September make a test on match and my results dropped like yours, but... i continued training on blank target for another month and October result are better than before!Anonymous wrote:I was shooting around 90-91% with my IZH-46. I've REALLY tried to force myself to focus on the front sight. Over the course of a few sessions, my average dropped into the mid/low 80's.
Thanks!
So, IMHO, train to blank target for a few times is not enough: i had to cancel all previous experience, and for me it take 2 months only to return on the old level. But now i'm increasing my average and best score (also on competition).
I decided to continue training on black target focusing on the front sight double times more than shooting over standard target.
My 0.02$.
Bye.
LkP
Sight Picture
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When you aim , you see the 'sight picture' that includes the target the front and rear sights ...
When the correct sight picture comes to view , as you squeeze off the shot ,you should be focussed on the front sight with the rear sight only just out of focus and the target a bit fuzzy but still in the right place relative to the sights.
Too much concentration on the front sight could result in the sight picture slipping and a bad shot with beautifully aligned front and rear sights !
Elmas
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When you aim , you see the 'sight picture' that includes the target the front and rear sights ...
When the correct sight picture comes to view , as you squeeze off the shot ,you should be focussed on the front sight with the rear sight only just out of focus and the target a bit fuzzy but still in the right place relative to the sights.
Too much concentration on the front sight could result in the sight picture slipping and a bad shot with beautifully aligned front and rear sights !
Elmas
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Fred Mannis
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Re: Sight Picture
I would prefer to say 'too long a time spent concentrating on the front.......'Elmas wrote:
Too much concentration on the front sight could result in the sight picture slipping and a bad shot with beautifully aligned front and rear sights !
You can't 'overconcentrate', but you can certainly spend too much time admiring that big, black, in focus front sight. :-o
Fred
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F. Paul in Denver
Elmas wrote:
I disagree - if you have achieved "beautifully aligned front and rear sights - you have not overconcentrated. In fact you have succeeded in achieving the first of the two major components of a fine shot. All you need now is beautiful trigger control to earn the 10.
I think Fred has it right - you must avoid concentration for too long on the front sight (causing serious deterioration) but you cannot overconcentrate on front sight focus within the limited amount of time your eyes/brain will allow you to focus.
[/b][/quote]
!Too much concentration on the front sight could result in the sight picture slipping and a bad shot with beautifully aligned front and rear sights
I disagree - if you have achieved "beautifully aligned front and rear sights - you have not overconcentrated. In fact you have succeeded in achieving the first of the two major components of a fine shot. All you need now is beautiful trigger control to earn the 10.
I think Fred has it right - you must avoid concentration for too long on the front sight (causing serious deterioration) but you cannot overconcentrate on front sight focus within the limited amount of time your eyes/brain will allow you to focus.
[/b][/quote]
Front site alone wont work
IMHO unless the perfect alignment of front and rear sights is in the right place relative to the target ... you wont get good shot placement... Ignore the sight picture 'in toto' at your peril .
Shooting is a challenge because many things have to happen synchronously and perfectly for the desired 'perfect shot'
Elmas
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Shooting is a challenge because many things have to happen synchronously and perfectly for the desired 'perfect shot'
Elmas
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JulianY
- Posts: 350
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- Location: A british shooting refugee in Amsterdam
- Contact:
oh god ! lets re wind this and look at what "Guest" said originalaly. First of if (s)he is hitting a 91, there is one hell of a lot going on right !
Tther is such a thing as instingtive shooting. I got to that level with out knowing what i was doing. After some coaching my avrager droped to 70! I felt like $#!T. but now i know I what I am doing, amnd such it is repeatable! Slowly my average is creeping back up - took several months (4), but now the black talks to me, sucks my shots in.
My next goal it to hold the 9 ring the same way i use to praise my self for having them all in then black. sure i can do it now, but not consistanty, but thats what I train for!
So for my $0.02 our friend is dooing a hell of a lot right. Yes change something and the balance will shift. but with a little help ( and a lot or practace ) (s)he will be shooting 95's no problems.
so trust your skill and take the time to experiment. THe throry is correct, but imagin what you could achieve it you had the corect technique ?
Having said that I suspect you may mostly have the corect techniqure. but you are transfuring it from the subconsouse to the consiouse and that makes for a point loss. Remember we are all lookin for the subconsiouse shot ( call it muscle memory - which i think is more realistic) but again that need lost of practace,practace of what we want to remember ,not what we do !
J
Tther is such a thing as instingtive shooting. I got to that level with out knowing what i was doing. After some coaching my avrager droped to 70! I felt like $#!T. but now i know I what I am doing, amnd such it is repeatable! Slowly my average is creeping back up - took several months (4), but now the black talks to me, sucks my shots in.
My next goal it to hold the 9 ring the same way i use to praise my self for having them all in then black. sure i can do it now, but not consistanty, but thats what I train for!
So for my $0.02 our friend is dooing a hell of a lot right. Yes change something and the balance will shift. but with a little help ( and a lot or practace ) (s)he will be shooting 95's no problems.
so trust your skill and take the time to experiment. THe throry is correct, but imagin what you could achieve it you had the corect technique ?
Having said that I suspect you may mostly have the corect techniqure. but you are transfuring it from the subconsouse to the consiouse and that makes for a point loss. Remember we are all lookin for the subconsiouse shot ( call it muscle memory - which i think is more realistic) but again that need lost of practace,practace of what we want to remember ,not what we do !
J
[........ Remember we are all lookin for the subconsiouse shot ( call it muscle memory - which i think is more realistic) but again that need lost of practace,practace of what we want to remember ,not what we do !
I dont think Muscle Memory is a good description of what happens.... Muscles do not have a 'memory' as such .
However the relay between the thinking brain and the nerves that carry orders from it to the muscles is strengthened by repetitive practice. A process referred to as 'facilitation' .
The thinking brain places a "standing order" to shoot when the correct sight picture is realized... then the brain will execute before you are consciously aware of the sequence ( and some people call that subconscious , and others describe it as the unconscious ) .
Elmas
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Fred Mannis
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IMHO, that is as good a description of the process as I have ever read, in standard, straightforward language.Elmas wrote: However the relay between the thinking brain and the nerves that carry orders from it to the muscles is strengthened by repetitive practice. A process referred to as 'facilitation' .
The thinking brain places a "standing order" to shoot when the correct sight picture is realized... then the brain will execute before you are consciously aware of the sequence ( and some people call that subconscious , and others describe it as the unconscious ) .
Doesn't this imply that training/practice requires as much time spent on shooting a bull as it does shooting at a blank card, so that the proper sight picture is learned?
Fred
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Steve Swartz
What Elmas is leaving out is hte realization that if you release the shot when you have the "perfect sight picture" (align and aim) you will never shoot a ten.
The system lock time (recognition + response + pistol delays) is substantial when overlaid on the wobble pattern.
Your subconscious (not "unconscious") must be able to compute the "lead time" for sending the release signal. That programming can only happen if three prerequisites are met CONSISTENTLY over a long period of time and/or repetitions:
1) Total concentrate on perfect ALIGNMENT
2) Total disregard of AIM
3) Perfect trigger RELEASE (no disturbance of alignment or nature=al wobble pattern AND totally consistent pressure response curve)
By not studiosuly "ignoring" aim you are willfully preventing your subconscious from being programmed.
Steve Swartz
(p.s. there is a lot of "THEORY" to explain this which I am quite willing to discuss- but more powerful than theory are the consistent observations and experience over time of the very best shooters [and, more importantly, the coaches of the best shooters] that came to the same exact realization: thinking about the "proper sight picture" is a distraction that will interfere with progress beyond a certain point; typically you will top out at the high 560's and go no further.)
The system lock time (recognition + response + pistol delays) is substantial when overlaid on the wobble pattern.
Your subconscious (not "unconscious") must be able to compute the "lead time" for sending the release signal. That programming can only happen if three prerequisites are met CONSISTENTLY over a long period of time and/or repetitions:
1) Total concentrate on perfect ALIGNMENT
2) Total disregard of AIM
3) Perfect trigger RELEASE (no disturbance of alignment or nature=al wobble pattern AND totally consistent pressure response curve)
By not studiosuly "ignoring" aim you are willfully preventing your subconscious from being programmed.
Steve Swartz
(p.s. there is a lot of "THEORY" to explain this which I am quite willing to discuss- but more powerful than theory are the consistent observations and experience over time of the very best shooters [and, more importantly, the coaches of the best shooters] that came to the same exact realization: thinking about the "proper sight picture" is a distraction that will interfere with progress beyond a certain point; typically you will top out at the high 560's and go no further.)
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Fred Mannis
- Posts: 1298
- Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 8:37 pm
- Location: Delaware
Has anyone ever built a model of this theory to test the effects of various parameters and to test whether outcomes are in agreement with observations?Steve Swartz wrote: (p.s. there is a lot of "THEORY" to explain this which I am quite willing to discuss- but more powerful than theory are the consistent observations and experience over time of the very best shooters [and, more importantly, the coaches of the best shooters] that came to the same exact realization: thinking about the "proper sight picture" is a distraction that will interfere with progress beyond a certain point; typically you will top out at the high 560's and go no further.)
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Ed Hall
Forgive me if I seem to be in an obstinate mood today. I believe in lots Steve and others have posted, but some I'm starting to question. Of course, currently, my scores are declining, so I may have lost something along the way. Consider that as my below responses are evaluated. In addition to declining scores, I am finding it impossible to perform my Rika trigger exercise to the result I intended and am now wondering if there is an underlying issue making it impossible - maybe something along the line of the before and after software evaluation, based on the moment of shot. Anyway, on to my current thoughts for this thread:
My current thoughts are somewhat different now, although my scores are slumped and my training is somewhat less than ideal. The "lead time computation" is something that I firmly believe can work and Steve has described this method quite well. I'll add my overview only to see if anyone notices any comparison/contrast, or agreement/disagreement before I move to my other thoughts.
My description of the perfect unfolding of a shot using subconscious "lead time computation":
1) Train for highly consistent trigger operation with Steve's "totally consistent pressure response curve." (Just a personal note about the term trigger RELEASE - I know the entire community appears to use the term this way, but does that make it correct? Yes, you are releasing the shot, but if you release the trigger and the gun fires, you have a "release trigger" which, as far as I know, is prohibited except in some USAS shotgun matches.)
2) Train for a hold (wobble if you like) that floats over the aiming area without any corrective actions needed. I sometimes refer to this scenario as an "environment for success."
3) Release all control to the subconscious so it can determine, based on its recognition of your holding pattern, the precise moment to initiate the trigger operation such that the projectile will meet the center of the holding area. Yes, I'm adding transit time to the ballistic equation your subconscious uses to calculate that initiation of trigger operation.
If all goes well, with X representing hole appearance, the subconscious can recognize when X is likely to occur based on the hold pattern and knows through training how long the trigger operation (TO) will take, such that at X-TO it initiates the TO.
I'm not so convinced that the above is the answer any more. It may be an answer, but I think it, too, is limiting. Let's examine an alteration (not necessarily an improvement - rather just a variation) of the above:
1) Train for highly consistent trigger operation with Steve's "totally consistent pressure response curve." (Starts like the other one, but there will be a difference.)
2) Study all the intricacies of your hold. Study what different corrections do to the pattern. Note the difference between sudden corrections and drifting corrections, as well as any over-corrections.
3) Set up for the shot and initiate your highly consistent trigger operation with Steve's "totally consistent pressure response curve."
4) Allow your subconscious to adjust your hold over the aiming area so it coincides with the shot release, resulting in a centered hit.
But wait, there may be more:
What about a subconscious effort that is so natural that it can dictate both the unfolding of the hold and the speed of the trigger operation?
1) Train with varying trigger speeds to allow the subconscious to recognize the shot release point.
2) Study all the intricacies of your hold. Study what different corrections do to the pattern. Note the difference between sudden corrections and drifting corrections, as well as any over-corrections.
3) Tell your subconscious to fire a centered shot and become an observer.
Now let's get back to the original poster's thread intention. You need to be able to discern variances in the alignment of the sighting system. As pointed out elsewhere, those variances can be observed far better if the sighting system is in focus. Additionally, those variances in sight alignment are far more indicative of shot placement than the variances projected by aiming at a target point.
As to whether this needs to be a determined concentration, I'm not so sure I agree. You do need good physical focus, and we may be starting to confuse terms again, but I think the term "empty mind," which is often also suggested, conflicts with "total concentration." Empty mind may not be the "magic term" either, but it may more closely describe the idea of observing rather than controlling the shot process. But what about visualization? Don't we also consider the mental rehearsal to be important, even during the shot itself?
This has gotten rather lengthy, so I'd better close it down and go back to my studies on the subject. As always, all comments of any direction are welcomed and appreciated. Perhaps someone can help me get back on the uphill part of my journey.
Steve: If so inclined, could you send me an email, either through the address you have or via the Team site redirect at edwin_hall@airforceshooting.org?
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
Total agreement! although I would substitute "initiate" for "release."Steve wrote:What Elmas is leaving out is hte realization that if you release the shot when you have the "perfect sight picture" (align and aim) you will never shoot a ten.
The system lock time (recognition + response + pistol delays) is substantial when overlaid on the wobble pattern.
I used to be in total agreement (except for this use of the word "RELEASE" which I will cover below). I really like the phrase "consistent pressure response curve." It really outdoes the "constantly increasing" description.Steve also wrote:Your subconscious (not "unconscious") must be able to compute the "lead time" for sending the release signal. That programming can only happen if three prerequisites are met CONSISTENTLY over a long period of time and/or repetitions:
1) Total concentrate on perfect ALIGNMENT
2) Total disregard of AIM
3) Perfect trigger RELEASE (no disturbance of alignment or nature=al wobble pattern AND totally consistent pressure response curve)
My current thoughts are somewhat different now, although my scores are slumped and my training is somewhat less than ideal. The "lead time computation" is something that I firmly believe can work and Steve has described this method quite well. I'll add my overview only to see if anyone notices any comparison/contrast, or agreement/disagreement before I move to my other thoughts.
My description of the perfect unfolding of a shot using subconscious "lead time computation":
1) Train for highly consistent trigger operation with Steve's "totally consistent pressure response curve." (Just a personal note about the term trigger RELEASE - I know the entire community appears to use the term this way, but does that make it correct? Yes, you are releasing the shot, but if you release the trigger and the gun fires, you have a "release trigger" which, as far as I know, is prohibited except in some USAS shotgun matches.)
2) Train for a hold (wobble if you like) that floats over the aiming area without any corrective actions needed. I sometimes refer to this scenario as an "environment for success."
3) Release all control to the subconscious so it can determine, based on its recognition of your holding pattern, the precise moment to initiate the trigger operation such that the projectile will meet the center of the holding area. Yes, I'm adding transit time to the ballistic equation your subconscious uses to calculate that initiation of trigger operation.
If all goes well, with X representing hole appearance, the subconscious can recognize when X is likely to occur based on the hold pattern and knows through training how long the trigger operation (TO) will take, such that at X-TO it initiates the TO.
I'm not so convinced that the above is the answer any more. It may be an answer, but I think it, too, is limiting. Let's examine an alteration (not necessarily an improvement - rather just a variation) of the above:
1) Train for highly consistent trigger operation with Steve's "totally consistent pressure response curve." (Starts like the other one, but there will be a difference.)
2) Study all the intricacies of your hold. Study what different corrections do to the pattern. Note the difference between sudden corrections and drifting corrections, as well as any over-corrections.
3) Set up for the shot and initiate your highly consistent trigger operation with Steve's "totally consistent pressure response curve."
4) Allow your subconscious to adjust your hold over the aiming area so it coincides with the shot release, resulting in a centered hit.
But wait, there may be more:
What about a subconscious effort that is so natural that it can dictate both the unfolding of the hold and the speed of the trigger operation?
1) Train with varying trigger speeds to allow the subconscious to recognize the shot release point.
2) Study all the intricacies of your hold. Study what different corrections do to the pattern. Note the difference between sudden corrections and drifting corrections, as well as any over-corrections.
3) Tell your subconscious to fire a centered shot and become an observer.
Now let's get back to the original poster's thread intention. You need to be able to discern variances in the alignment of the sighting system. As pointed out elsewhere, those variances can be observed far better if the sighting system is in focus. Additionally, those variances in sight alignment are far more indicative of shot placement than the variances projected by aiming at a target point.
As to whether this needs to be a determined concentration, I'm not so sure I agree. You do need good physical focus, and we may be starting to confuse terms again, but I think the term "empty mind," which is often also suggested, conflicts with "total concentration." Empty mind may not be the "magic term" either, but it may more closely describe the idea of observing rather than controlling the shot process. But what about visualization? Don't we also consider the mental rehearsal to be important, even during the shot itself?
This has gotten rather lengthy, so I'd better close it down and go back to my studies on the subject. As always, all comments of any direction are welcomed and appreciated. Perhaps someone can help me get back on the uphill part of my journey.
Steve: If so inclined, could you send me an email, either through the address you have or via the Team site redirect at edwin_hall@airforceshooting.org?
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
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Steve Swartz
As usual, very good stuff from Ed. In reverse order of "thought provoking-ness:"
1) perfect trigger is an absolutely non-negotiable prerequisite as always no disagreement here (especially as to what defines "perfect" which some new shooters may find confusing)
2) "Release the shot" refers to the HUMAN (not gun) side of the system; i.e. give coscious to subconscious permission to let the shot go (release it). Ed knows that and (as he suggests) maybe better terminology would help prevent confusion . . . "initiate" Ed implies a conscious willful action which is NOT what we are looking for.
Initiate? Release? Maybe we need a different word?
2) I am also waffling around on the exact "Moment of Truth" process. I know- classical approach is some variant of align-recognize/accept settle-flow into subconscious release/initiation sequence. Ed has posited a modification which we all discussed at great length recently that could be characterized more as the align-recognize/accept settle-[steer release] model. Even with much discussion I think the exact nature of Ed's model is still up for refinement?
I hope I am not mischaracterizing the nature of the system.
I have found the idea of active steering and initiation/release (both by the subconscious) to be an intriguing one. I have not yet figured out in practice how to take advantage of this idea; as with Ed, my scores in practice have declined somewhat since entertaining the new process.
Damn it Ed, why'd ya put that virus in my head!? =8^0
Anyhow . . . I can't even come up with a way to determine which (classical or Hallian) process is actually in use for any given shooter and/or shot. Certainly one would not be able to observe his or her self which technique they were using . . . there are indeed ways to "train for" one method or the other though.
Again, fascinating stuff for one and all.
Steve
1) perfect trigger is an absolutely non-negotiable prerequisite as always no disagreement here (especially as to what defines "perfect" which some new shooters may find confusing)
2) "Release the shot" refers to the HUMAN (not gun) side of the system; i.e. give coscious to subconscious permission to let the shot go (release it). Ed knows that and (as he suggests) maybe better terminology would help prevent confusion . . . "initiate" Ed implies a conscious willful action which is NOT what we are looking for.
Initiate? Release? Maybe we need a different word?
2) I am also waffling around on the exact "Moment of Truth" process. I know- classical approach is some variant of align-recognize/accept settle-flow into subconscious release/initiation sequence. Ed has posited a modification which we all discussed at great length recently that could be characterized more as the align-recognize/accept settle-[steer release] model. Even with much discussion I think the exact nature of Ed's model is still up for refinement?
I hope I am not mischaracterizing the nature of the system.
I have found the idea of active steering and initiation/release (both by the subconscious) to be an intriguing one. I have not yet figured out in practice how to take advantage of this idea; as with Ed, my scores in practice have declined somewhat since entertaining the new process.
Damn it Ed, why'd ya put that virus in my head!? =8^0
Anyhow . . . I can't even come up with a way to determine which (classical or Hallian) process is actually in use for any given shooter and/or shot. Certainly one would not be able to observe his or her self which technique they were using . . . there are indeed ways to "train for" one method or the other though.
Again, fascinating stuff for one and all.
Steve
Steve Swartz wrote:As usual, very good stuff from Ed.
2) "Release the shot" refers to the HUMAN (not gun) side of the system; i.e. give coscious to subconscious permission to let the shot go (release it). Ed knows that and (as he suggests) maybe better terminology would help prevent confusion . . . "initiate" Ed implies a conscious willful action which is NOT what we are looking for.
Steve
I think many shooters may be 'rushing their subconscious' into taking over !!
I would suggest than one should train , and train , to consciously release the shot until a time when we discover ( perhaps to our surprise ) that the subconscious is 'taking over' the process and actually initiating the shot release b e f o r e we get the chance to be aware of it , and notably "doing it better ! " Perhaps by getting an earlier start ? .
Incidentally , Steve's earlier comment that : trigger release at the 'optimum sight picture' may be too late , for the lock time of AP's is notoriously slow and the wobble will divert the aiming point from the desired center by the time the pellet exits the barell is to my mind , correct and explains a lot of what we experience .
Elmas
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