TargetTalk

Hi,

I'm shooting 10m air pistol.

I've read a number of shooting guides and threads on this forum. There is one recurring piece of advice: to ignore the target and focus instead on the relationship between the front and rear sights.

My question is, without the target as a point of reference, how does one know where the shot will land?

Thanks
:)

to put it simply the effect of not properly aligning your sights is much more disastrous than that of not aiming at the exact "correct" spot.

you do not need that high an accuracy on where to aim on the target.

so the term a point of reference should be reconsidered and i am sure all here would suggest you use an aiming area instead.

You have hit on the single biggest reason why the vast majority of shooters never get beyond the high 550s.

Those who "internalize" the role of sight alignment break the barrier. Those who continue to work on their "aim" never do.

Steve Swartz

Say to yourself until you believe it:

"Wobble doesn't matter. Sight alignment does."

Then keep on saying it....

titantoppler wrote:Hi,

/***************************/

My question is, without the target as a point of reference, how does one know where the shot will land?

Thanks
:)

The rough answer is that you don't know where the shots will go unless there is an aiming point. Generally there is something for the brain to use as a reference point. A blank target at the very least.

A few months ago, Reuters Health reported a study that had subjects concentrate on a reference point. Information was then introduced within the vision area, but outside the concentration area. Later, the subjects were tested to see how much of that information made it into memory. Subjects were not only able to report the existence of the information, but a surprising amount of its content. I knew at the time that I should have saved the article, but life intervened and I never got back to it. The implications of the study to shooters is certainly thought provoking. We concentrate our conscious focus on the sight alignment. That is where most of our errors come from. Trigger control is presumed to be actuated by the subconscious, usually after some release by the conscious mind. Hold control, the relationship of the front sight to the aiming point is seldom considered. I suspect that even though we are not looking at that relationship, the brain is aware of it and may also control it from a subconscious script like trigger control.

I suspect that a poorly formed hold script is the source of a vexation that afflicts many intermediate shooters. Most, and probably all of us at one time or another has had a nice tight group centered in the 8 ring on one target, and then had the center move to the other side of the next target without making any correction to the sights. Some of it may be from poorly formed stance, but much of the wandering group problem is probably due to a poor hold control script.

There have been a number of deep discussions lately about the totally, or near totally subconscious shot. I think that all top shooters are actively managing their hold on a subconscious level, and that they are engaging the trigger based on subconscious cues from that management. All of those very boring hold exercises are really quite important in the long run.

I am not advocating that you look at, or peek at the target while aiming. Placing your conscious focus on the front sight has been repeated proven as the best course. Realize though, that you are seeing the aiming point any way, and your subconscious is struggling with keeping everything aligned.

Excuse me while I done my asbestos suit. As Steve would say – Let the flames begin.

Larry

So general consensus is that I should just "attempt" to ignore the target? I'm not sure about this, because I don't feel comfortable shooting "blind".

Anyway, I'll give it a try. If I get interesting results I'll post them here.

:)

you are hardly blind and dont actually have to ignore the target. think of it as focusing on the sights and while this happens, the target itself is blurred. you can still tell where you are on the target.

Hi,

Just came back from the range. It seems that my shot groupings are tighter now, as most of the shots land inside the 8-ring and the occasional flier into the 7-ring.

However, it is very hard to maintain my concentration. If my concentration breaks and I go back to referencing the target, then the shots go awry.

Ah well... I'll just have to adapt.

:)

here is an age old drill for this situation. mount the target backwards ie the whole card is white and just use that. just guesstimate where you should be aiming and dont use the shot holes as a reference and dont tell yourself the next shot must be as close to the previous as possible. just focus and firing off the shot under the best sight conditions you can achieve.

this way there is no black to distract you can you can keep your eyes on the sights. one thing i would like to add is that aligning the sights starts even before you raise the pistol. it has already started even before you are actually looking at the sights. how your locking your wrist and gripping the pistol grip is important too. but one thing at a time and now its to kill off that habit of using the target itself as a point reference.

Steve Swartz wrote:You have hit on the single biggest reason why the vast majority of shooters never get beyond the high 550s.

Those who "internalize" the role of sight alignment break the barrier. Those who continue to work on their "aim" never do.

Steve Swartz

I'm putting my money on what Steve Swartz has said .

But , I think he needs to elaborate and explain his point a bit .


( in case I've misunderstood his comment and misplaced my bet ! )

Elmas

.

Elmas wrote:

Steve Swartz wrote:You have hit on the single biggest reason why the vast majority of shooters never get beyond the high 550s.

Those who "internalize" the role of sight alignment break the barrier. Those who continue to work on their "aim" never do.

Steve Swartz

I'm putting my money on what Steve Swartz has said .

But , I think he needs to elaborate and explain his point a bit .


( in case I've misunderstood his comment and misplaced my bet ! )

Elmas

.

Alse is my case! Please Steve Swartz explain his point a bit!!!
Thank you.

LkP

Sorry it took so long to reply; hope you are still interested in the answer.

First, evidence through repeated observation. The top shooters- and better yet, the coaches of the top shooters- all say pretty much the same thing (in sometimes slightly different words).

Well, of course that wasn't good enough for me- just because all teh experts said so, didn't mean it was "True." And besides, i never did like the explanation many of them had "We Don't Know Why It Works, It Just Does."

Sheesh.

O.K., so I went on my multi-year quest for the "Theory" of why focusing on front sight alignment (align) was so so so so much more important than even paying any attention at all to where the gun was pointed (aim). This was counter-intuitive (How Do I Know Where The Shot Will Go If I'm Not Looking At Where The Gun Is Pointed?); and even though the most qualified were all saying the same thing of course "they" all had to be "wrong."

[side note: while on this quest I concentrated on stance, grip, aim, hold, etc. etc. like everyone else adn my scores went nowhere for 18 months]

Here's what I finally figured out/learned/picked up by osmosis:

1. The amount of perceived angular error regulated by the "aligning" process represented a huge error on the target (multiple rings)
2. The amount of perceived parallel error regulated by the "aiming" process represented a minor error on the target (inside a ring)

Therefore, concentrating on the greatest source of error (misalignment) yielded the gtreatest reduction in error on target. Also

3. You *cannot* concetrate (and do a good job) on trigger, align, and aim all at the same time
4. Trigger execution can be rote-trained to be totally automatic

Therefore, train the trigger execution to be totally automatic and you now have only two candidates for things to concentrate on- see 1. & 2. above. If you try to aim and align at the same time you won't be concentrating on either one. Also

5. When you see the (fleeting) "perfect sight picture" (aim and align) it is too late to send the signal to the trigger
6. It is impossible for the conscious mind to send the trigger activation signal at the exact amount of lead time ahead in order for the aligned sights to be int eh proper position when the pellet leaves the muzzle

So now what you have to do keep the sight alignment perfect, allow the aim to wobble around (it will anyway), and use the perfectly consistent trigger execution process over MANY trials until your subconscious is programmed to recognize that the perfect sight picture is IMMINENT (not achieved).

After thousands of trials, your subconscious will send the trigger activation signal a perfectly predictable instant ahead of time for the shot to drop in the ten ring [alternately, as the signal is sent the subconscious directs the perfectly aligned sights closer toward the proper aiming point].


In conclusion- in practice, you must ignore the "aim" and focus intently on perfectly executing smooth and rapid trigger pressure while maintaining perfect sight alignment. As long as you train on this task with PURITY (i.e., focusing on your CONTROLLABLE BEHAVIORS and NOT on any kind of holes in paper) for however long it takes to program your "fire control system," you will have BROKEN THE CODE.

Everything else is, well, "nice" and all that but pretty much irrelevant.

YMMV

Steve Swartz

p.s. you should be live firing & dry firing against a blank target probably two-three times more than doing anything against the distraction bull until your programming has taken hold.

Better yet- don't fire against a distraction bull at all for the next two tins of pellets.

Once you get near world class, you can change the ratio to more like 50-50.

Steve Swartz

[again, my opinion only your mileage may vary standard disclaimers apply etc.]

i wonder if this is why i am not able to overcome my wall at about 545.

my triggering isnt automated as if i try that the chances of bad shots increase many folds as i sometimes have a large aim area due to a unstable and erratic hold. even with good sight alignment, i can have shots that end up in 7.
my solution is to only decide to pull the trigger when i settle into the aiming area and decide that the wobble is within limits. this greatly reduces the amount of 7s and 8s that i shoot but as i can see it, this hinders my room for improvement. how would you suggest that i train to overcome it? or to find a better solution for my problem?

A question for Steve:

With respect to your explaination for " focus on the fore sight and squeeze the trigger" as the only mantra pistol shooters need, can I ask whether, in your experience, a hold in the blank paper below the bull is more conducive to this process, or whether top shooters can "de-focus" (if there is sucha word - and if you understand what I mean) the bull and use a sub-6 hold.
Sorry - that WAS a long sentence.

I am at a point in my training where I can put everything in the 8-ring if I shoot the card back-to-front. Unfortunately, as soon as the bloody bull is there it exerts this amazing pellet-displacing force. Or rather, it distracts my otherwise fairly sound shot process. Mmmmmm. Guess I just answered my own question.

Is it Focus on the frontsight

A F T E R you've settled in the Aiming Area

A S you squeeze the trigger ?

Elmas
.

[quote="Elmas"]Is it [b]Focus[/b] on the frontsight

[b]A F T E R[/b] you've settled in the Aiming Area

[b] A S[/b] you squeeze the trigger ?

Elmas
.[/quote]


Borrowing from US Bullseye shooter Joe White,
Focus and align before, during, and after the fall of the hammer.

Just my $0.02

- Sub six hold helps me focus (physically and mentally) on alignment and ignore the distraction bull

- Customize your shot plan any way you want, as long as the net effect is that during the "moment of truth" (300 ms before to 100 ms after the break) you are aligning sights perfectly, focused intently on the front sight, and settled in and around the aiming area

Me personally I pick up on the front site as I come down from the apex of the loft; begin aligning as the front sight drifts through the top of the target, and increase intensity of focus on front sight/aligning of sights as the sights settle below the target intot he aiming area.

As long as everything comes together in hte moment before teh shot breaks, it's all good.

Steve Swartz

Lol how lovely, Months since I came in here and I find this wonderfull thread.
Exactly what I am thinking at the moment with my shooting... O and to the original poster The exersise that Steve says about a shooting couple of tins to just the back of the target helps allot in many areas, Sight focus, trigger control, and timing of your whole shot.
I´m starting again with the exersise but to put it interesting I shoot 20 on the back of the target then 5 in the front and so on.
Now for some reason I can concentrate more on the sights and notice when I "space out" in a shot

Hear is a target, I have been using for training that I am finding realy efective. it based on the Edelmann Control target ( which i cant get hold of at the moment - Importer aparently stoped importing them due to lack of demand! and thus the need to make it) but with the rings left on. I print it on 160g/m2 Xerox paper not perfect bet better that plain paper.



feel free to copy etc it

Julian