TargetTalk

After discharging 75 rounds of 22lr using a Standard pistol I ended up with the following punched target:



Would you be able to comment some of my shooting faults just looking at the above target? If that's possible I'd love to read your comments!

The pattern that you show is very dispersed and hard to generalize as to a specific "fault." The overall comment I would make is that your pistol is in line for at lease 4+ clicks right windage at 25 metres. Other than trying to analyze the position of each shot, the fact that the majority of rounds ended to the left side of the target leads to that conclusion. Some shooter rely heavily on shot placement charts and start to worry about things such as: Too much or too little trigger finger, anticipation of recoil, lobster clawing...etc. Not knowing how long you have been shooting this event and your general savvy and way too many shots on target---I cannot draw any other conclusions. Try to use your first target in Slow Fire as a backer for the next two practise targets will give you an idea as to where your shot placement is---that is why I suggest a few clicks right windage because of where your shot majority lies. You can also use the target backer approach with 20 sec. & 10 sec. stages as well. This generally assists you in compensating for your "style" which is the next step after bench zeroing your pistol, by adjusting the sights to better suit your "style." All this being said if your naturalPOA is not correct then that could also be causing all shots to the left. The other shots are indications of many different errors---but work on one thing at time. Eliminate possibilities one by one until you reach the Ah-hah point---good luck.

In my NSHO, I would consider that you are focused more at the target and results, than at the gun and technique. Although you could move the pattern to the right with sight adjustment to gain points, my suggestion would be to study the activity at the gun and refine your trigger operation relative to what happens back between the sights (or within the tube for a scope) first. Use the sighting system as a "trigger purity indicator" and the groups will compress.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Nice 12 gaugewhat choke did you use?

Sorry, joking apart , I can see the logic behind what you are trying to do. The proble is that without cactualy seeing you shoot it is hard say what you are doing.

First off i would not go adjusting you sights at this stage, for me the group is too large. you could find you sel then corecin a fault and then re introducing it just to hit the 10!

My guess is you are trying to shring the group and gain more consistancy.

rule 1 Sights, sights, sights , watch the sights.

I see 4 posible problems sight watching, trigger technique, grip techique, stance.

What is dont see is the classic classi Y shaped group so your stance must be quit good, balanced but perhaps a little to the left.

Do you increase you left tendancy the longer you shoot in one session?

Consistancy is always a matter of improving the basics. Think softwae not hardware

your best bet is to get a coach to watch you or failing that video you self shooting several cards and then be real critical

Julian

> Do you increase you left tendancy the longer you shoot in one session?

I never took special attention to it but I think you're right. I have some tendency to shoot to the left which increases over the course of my training.

After some thinking and observation of myself during the discharge of a round I ended up with the conclusion that I may be 'thumbing'.

What can you advice me to increase my concentration in the sights/handling? Mainly with the sight focus. Otherwise I'll try positioning myself a little more to the right.

First question, are you right or left handed? Thumbing for a righthanded shooter would push the shots to the right, not the left.

As someone pointed out, it's hard to decipher what's going with a target with so many shots. You could be doing several things at different times.

A couple of recommendations:

1) Learn to call your shots. If you are really focused on sight alignment, you can learn to take a mental snapshot of the alignment of the sights at the instant the shot breaks. You should be able to predict where each shot goes, and this will help in many ways. If the shots go where you call them, you should detect any patterns to your group moving around. If you can't call them at all, it's a good chance you aren't watching you sights. If you can call your shots and they don't go where you expect, it may be time for a sight change.

2) Try to learn from every shot. If you shoot a good shot, stop for a second and think about what it looked like and felt like. This will make it easier to repeat. If you shoot a bad shot, don't dwell on it, or you will train yourself to shoot more of them.

3) A lot of the sort of variations on your target could be from an inconsistent grip. Make sure your pistol fits your hand well, and ALWAYS use your non-shooting hand to help grab it the same way every time. If possible, don't re-grip the pistol during a string. The most consistent grip is one that doesn't change.

4) The same thing goes for your feet. Don't dance around during a string. If you can't see through your spotting scope without moving your feet, move the scope. Keep your feet in the same place until you have to move to change your target. The only exception is if you check your natural point of aim and discover it's drifted.

There are lots of diagnostic targets around. Here's the one I put together based on several I've seen:

http://users.rcn.com/gwhite/#diagnostic

target wrote:> Do you increase you left tendancy the longer you shoot in one session?

I never took special attention to it but I think you're right. I have some tendency to shoot to the left which increases over the course of my training.

After some thinking and observation of myself during the discharge of a round I ended up with the conclusion that I may be 'thumbing'.

Ok this will generate some debate but hear goes;
I will first say I am not a coach but this is the way it was explained to me., so I am offering it in good faith. Coaches feel free to jump in. Hope it helps.

There was good reason that I asked this question. The natural point of aim is a balance between the pectoral (chest) muscle and the lats (back) muscle. Since these muscles are different sizes, and different strengths, they will tire at different rates, changing the balance point. This should be checked at least every 20 shots.

Secondly each effort you make reduces the oxygen level in the blood and the sugar levels in the muscle. You need at least three breathe between shots to replace the oxygen, and ideally 30 seconds to replace the sugar (the body does this naturally I just need a but of time). These times reduce the fitter you are. Reduced oxygen level will affect your eye sight first. So relax and don’t shoot fast!

A lot is talked about grips but very little about grip technique. Try this on the wrist of your non shooting hand. First wrap you shooting hand round your other wrist. The try to twist your no shooting wrist – it will twist quite easily. Now re apply your shooting hand to your wrist but this time don’t wrap. Simply grip your wrist by applying pressure from the middle bone in your finger and the thumb pad / the base of your hand, ignore any gaps of the palm. Now twist. You will feel the deference immediately. Now try the second method with your pistol. It does not need a strong grip hold just a grip hold in the right place. You have done two things put the grip in line with the barrel and locked your wrist. Any gaps you find when you on your pistols grip can them be filled with “putty” so your hand falls naturally in this position. There are more techniques out there but this one works for me. Above all be consistent.

Finally where you place your non shooting hand affects the position of you non shooting shoulder. Try the various option in the mirror and watch what happens to you shoulder. Shoulders are quite heavy and it affects your balance. If you shoulder is too far back it will cause you twist, you will correct this and sway will be introduced. For me gripping the belt buckle is best but some prefer a pocket. You will need to experiment with this.

The bottom line is go back to the basics.

target wrote: What can you advice me to increase my concentration in the sights/handling? Mainly with the sight focus. Otherwise I'll try positioning myself a little more to the right.

This is the hard part, its concentration. focus on the for sight , dont alow you focus to wonder to the target. Above all be disaplined. If you focus wanders, that shot is over. lower the gun breath and start again.

regards Julian

First of all thank you for your replies!

I'm right handed and thanks for that diagnostic target Gwhite!

JulianY, I cannot have a shooting coach. Well, there are no coaches on my range. I would have to travel like half a day to find one and it would be quite expensive.

As I understood it whenever I'm straying my shoots to the left means I've been shooting too much too fast. Isn't it?

Would shooting glasses (which ones?) help me concentrating on the sight picture? I've never used them.

target wrote: As I understood it whenever I'm straying my shoots to the left means I've been shooting too much too fast. Isn't it?
.

No not quite, getting tired will make faults worse and can change you natural point or aim. your can reduce the rate of getting tired by pausing for longer between shots. but there is more going on hear that just stance. if it was only stance you would have a horazontal spread!

target wrote: Would shooting glasses (which ones?) help me concentrating on the sight picture? I've never used them.
.

They might help

New shooters tend to make the same common errors. Here are some things to think about:

1. The fundamentals of pistol shooting are position, grip, breath control, sight alignment, trigger squeeze and follow-through.

2. The position used in international-style competition is the one-handed stance. As you bring your arm up, it should be fully extended so you can lock both your elbow and your wrist. The most important part of getting it right is checking your natural point of aim (NPA.) Before the first shot and again periodically (e.g., any time you move your feet, set the gun down and pick it up again, etc.), close your eyes, bring the gun up and then open your eyes to see where it's pointed. The gun will be pointed somewhere and it might as well be at the target. If that's not where it's pointed, move your back foot slightly, then try again.

3. The most important consideration in gripping the gun is that you do it exactly the same way every time. Push it into your shooting hand with your non-shooting hand so that the web between your thumb and index finger is up high and tight against the back of the grip. Grip the gun with your thumb and lower three fingers; it should be firm but not a "death grip." Your index finger should NOT be on the trigger; it should be alongside the gun.

4. Before raising the gun, take a few slow, deep breaths to relax and settle your body and get enough oxygen into you. Let out most of your last breath as you raise the gun.

5. Focus on your front sight. Because they are at different distances, your eye cannot bring the target, your front sight and your rear sight into perfect focus simultaneously. It is simply not possible. So you have to choose what to look at. Most new shooters expect they should try to line up the front sight with the target and that the target should be in best focus but this is totally wrong.

Sight alignment (i.e., the alignment of front sight with the rear sight) is FAR more important than sight picture (i.e., the combination of sight alignment and target.) Small errors in sight picture will still be small errors on the target because the gun is still pointed straight. But small errors in sight alignment turn into huge errors on the target because those are angular errors that get multiplied over the distance to the target.

The front sight should be in best possible focus as you align it with the rear sight, which should be next best focus. Try to keep the top of the front sight blade aligned perfectly with the (slightly fuzzy) top edge of the rear sight and positioned in the rear notch so there's exactly as much opening on either side of it. Least important is alignment with the target, which should be out-of-focus and pretty fuzzy. The only thing about sight picture (i.e., the addition of the target bullseye) you should worry about is that even though it'll be fuzzy, it should be consistent: Most competitors use either 6 o'clock or sub-6 hold, meaning they try to hold the gun so the front sight is right up against the bottom of that fuzzy black or a little below that to make it even easier to focus on the front sight.

6. Move your finger onto the trigger only once you're actually on the target. Position your finger so the trigger is just before your first joint. Slowly squeeze, squeeze, squeeze 'till the gun fires. The single most common mistake most new shooters make in trigger control is trying to snatch the shot. It's not humanly possible to get a perfect sight picture and hold it perfectly still. The bullseye will move around in front of your sights and there's a huge temptation to want to jerk the trigger as it goes by. That flat-out does not work. If you jerk the trigger, you will jerk the gun, twisting it in one direction or another.

If you cannot get off a good shot in, say, 7 or 8 seconds, ABORT! Start over. Do not try to force the shot. After holding your breath too long, you'll start to wobble and it will not get better. Experienced shooters will joke that when they abort and start over, they still have a 10 in the gun.

7. Follow-through. When the gun fires, FREEZE! Don't move a muscle! Not any part of your body! Try to capture a mental image of what the sight picture looked like when the gun fired so that you can "call the shot" to say where you think it will land. Allow the gun to settle back into position as if you were going to take another shot but don't do it. Only after it's settled, take your finger off the trigger and slowly lower the gun to the bench.

Repeat thousands of times.

The best pistol advise I've seen is the response above this one. I would only add to do dry fire training and try to determine how the front sight moves in relation to your actions. Set up and execute exactly like it was a live fire. Pull the trigger on an empty chamber and watch you front sights. After taking a live shot, dry fire a couple and watch the sight picture. It's free practice as no ammunition is expended. I also recommend air pistol to everyone who shoots pistol. Nothing teaches sight picture and trigger control like a gun with no recoil.

Thank you a lot Nicole! I've been shooting for some years now but I never received any coaching at all.

I thought about an air gun and setting up a 'range' at home but I have no idea what hardware would suit the best.

Meanwhile it will be a couple days till I can go to the range again. I'll try to post three targets with no more than 20 shots each next time.

target wrote:I've been shooting for some years now but I never received any coaching at all. ... I'll try to post three targets with no more than 20 shots each next time.

You might look around for a club in your area that offers classes. Most clubs here in the US are NRA-affiliated and usually have a staff of volunteer NRA-certified instructors. Since you've never had any coaching at all, try to sign up for the Basic Pistol class. It's generic, not specifically oriented toward international-style shooting, but it is does include both lecture and live-fire exercises and some basic coaching that you may find helpful.

Re: posting more targets, that's may not be all that useful. What a coach needs to see is you, while you shoot, not so much what the target looks like afterward.

Please do not feel upset or disheartened if I seem to disagree with things from above. I'm merely providing my opinions and suggestions...

Lots of good suggestions have been provided, like using your sight alignment to call your shots instead of where the alignment was pointed, and the mention of how much more important angular dispersion (at the gun) is than parallel dispersion (reference to target). I must add that I feel the trigger operation to be the most important of the fundamentals list with sight alignment coming in as a close second. In fact, I consider the two, to be so close as to be parts of a whole. IOW, you can use the sight alignment to perfect the trigger operation. By observing the alignment throughout the movement of the trigger, you can make the trigger operation precise in its unfolding. This is what I refer to as using the sights as a "trigger purity indicator."

I also caution about being too slow in your attempt to manipulate the trigger. Notice that I'm referring to the actual trigger operation, not time on target. Can you really be increasing pressure smoothly through several seconds? Or, are you possibly increasing by little bits at a time and stopping to observe each little bit's effect on the sight picture? Or, even worse, are you adding little bits and then correcting for perceived errors, which covers up the impurity of the trigger? Your trigger should be determined, not cautious. You should expect to fire, not question if it will be a ten. To determine your proper operation for your trigger, start with an empty gun, checked twice to ensure there is no ammo in or around it, pointed in a safe direction. Check again, and then without looking at the sights (for safety, look where you're pointing it), operate the trigger. Make it a determined pull from start to finish. How long did it take? How did it feel? Study this often.

If the actual trigger pull, itself, is noticeably longer when on target, your visual cues are interfering with your trigger operation. Learn to have the same trigger process whether you are looking at the sights or not, and whether you are against a blank surface or a target bull. Once you determine the natural speed for your trigger manipulation, refine your specific process to minimize movements as seen in your "trigger purity indicator" (sight alignment). Refine through placement of finger, grip, etc. and through how you contract the segments of your finger, re-evaluating how everything affects the natural flow of operating the trigger without any hesitations. Revisit how the trigger feels without looking at the sights and constantly strive for the same operation while looking.

Now to error correction. I don't support spending time looking for trouble spots to fix. I know it's an old and proven method, but I think it's the long way around and should only be used if you have a really ingrained problem that you can't bring yourself to let go of. Instead, I suggest working toward your goals by studying the things that work and promoting those traits. If you focus on how you shoot centered shots instead of how you fire wild ones, the errant ones will disappear. Remove them from your thoughts, and let them drift away. Especially stay away from thoughts about always having poor shots. If you make yourself believe that, you will have to keep it true.

I've carried on too long, so let me close by suggesting again that the important activity is at the gun - the most important fundamental is trigger operation - the sights can be used to perfect that operation.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

target wrote: JulianY, I cannot have a shooting coach. Well, there are no coaches on my range. I would have to travel like half a day to find one and it would be quite expensive.

So far I have seen an number of excelent posts, all trying in their own way to describe what is correct. Admitidly most with more eloquence than me ( dyslexia rules KO)

All of us that have risked our opinions, have done so without watching you shoot... The bottom line is all the posts is "focus on the basics".

I can't tell you how much you are prepared to spend on your shooting, but is would rather buy the chepest ammo and afford a coarch thant the other way round. My experience with a good coach ( and i have been lucky) is I put 5 points on my average every time is see him. ok I drop back a couple till I see him the next time but 5 steps forward folowed by two steps back is progess!.

If you realy can't see a coach, who is the best shot in your club? Get them to loonk at you.

Lastly video your self shooting. Franky do this any way, you will see all sorts of things you never thought you were doing.

once again best wishes

Julian Y

I went to the range today. I've been able to discharge 20 rounds in 150" series. 20 rounds in 20" series and 20 more rounds in 10" series.

The targets look like this:

150"


20"


10"


I had one zero in one of the 10" series. In the second to last 10" series I realised the trigger had some overtravel so I decided to adjust it to 'zero'. Then, the trigger felt much better in the last 10" series. The results were up to that.

The overall score (if memory serves) was just 501 points which is very low. Perhaps it'd be a lot better after that trigger adjustment.

As I had 30 'spare rounds' I decided to discharge them aiming at a 'blank' target. It was a rapid fire target turned backwards. I didn't really know where to aim but I just kept discharging series after series till the 30 rounds were off.

That reverse target looks like:



Looking at the above target (shot in 150" series - 3 breathe between shots) it has a 4 inch side while the first 150" target has a 6 inch side score.

I have a six hold so after looking at the above targets I came with the idea that a sub 6 hold (like aiming at 4/5) would be a lot better. No fusion between sights and bull thus tightening the score. Would that work?

How do I train to have a sub six hold after years having a six hold?

7. Follow-through. When the gun fires, FREEZE! Don't move a muscle! Not any part of your body! Try to capture a mental image of what the sight picture looked like when the gun fired so that you can "call the shot" to say where you think it will land. Allow the gun to settle back into position as if you were going to take another shot but don't do it. Only after it's settled, take your finger off the trigger and slowly lower the gun to the bench.

After discharging a round and 'freezing' the gun doesn't settle back to the original position. It rests somewhere else each and every time.

That's why in the 20" and 10" series I have to spend a little time (very little though) aiming for the next shot. Usually, a small wrist movement/retightening.

[quote="target"][quote]7. Follow-through. When the gun fires, FREEZE! Don't move a muscle! Not any part of your body! Try to capture a mental image of what the sight picture looked like when the gun fired so that you can "call the shot" to say where you think it will land. Allow the gun to settle back into position as if you were going to take another shot but don't do it. Only after it's settled, take your finger off the trigger and slowly lower the gun to the bench.

After discharging a round and 'freezing' the gun doesn't settle back to the original position. It rests somewhere else each and every time.

That's why in the 20" and 10" series I have to spend a little time (very little though) aiming for the next shot. Usually, a small wrist movement/retightening.[/quote]
[/quote]
Rather than "freeze", I would say "maintain" the sight/hold conditions past the shot. I think it should be pre-programmed for that in the mental process.

How to train:
1. Stop shooting at a distraction target (see previous recommendations)
2. If you insist on slowing your progress by shooting at a distraction target, then align the sights and allow them to settle below the target; concentrate on maintaining perfect alignment with perfect shot release (trigger)

Follow through:
1. Instead of "freezing" think of it as "continuing to shoot the shot THROUGH the release (instead of UP TO the release)
a) Physical follow through: maintain perfect sight alignment, settled in wobble area, before, during, and after the release
b) Mental follow through: treat every shot as if it were a dry fire . . . see previous recommendations about shooting the vast majority of yoru shots against a blank target- you shuold also be "shooting" the vast majority of your shots as DRY FIRE. Don't waste valuable training time with live fire. Dry fire training will greatly improve (and I would argue is the only effective way to train for) good follow throguh.

Steve Swartz

Steve Swartz wrote:How to train:
1. Stop shooting at a distraction target (see previous recommendations)

Nail on the head. perfect your technique on training and control targets, then figure how to translate that on to a "distraction target"

J