TargetTalk

NPA where is it?

For those who have seen this discussed a zillion time please exit gracefully.

There has been much written and said about NPA and I am after several weeks of trying unable to establish where mine is. I go through the procedure of closing my eyes, raising my arm outstretched and pointing with my index finger. Holding this position and opening my eyes. I do this many times aiming at a blank wall and just can not find a consistent natural point of aim.

There are numerous degrees of freedom that need to be controlled in all the joints that require repeated learning until they become entrenched in the cerebellum and can be called upon consistently as an almost subconscious effort. This is the goal at this stage of the sport that is eluding me. I and am wondering if this is something most rookies experience who don’t have access to or enlist the services of a coach.

My feelings are that because we are adaptive it is possible to have many natural points of aim just as there are say many ways to sit in a chair or hold a pencil. I can clearly understand why duellists using rapiers or pistols face their opponents sideways on so as to present a small a target as possible and perhaps this is where the origins of pistol stance and competition started.

If I look at the target before raising my pistol I then naturally raise my arm and adjust my point of aim accordingly regardless of stance.

Perhaps it is a case of finding a position that can eventually demonstrate through better scores which to settle into and hone to perfection.

Cheers Torn Fibre

Don't fret, I think what you are experiencing is normal, and is experienced by most people, whether they are aware of it or not.

The whole close your eye, do the arm rotation, and point with your finger will certainly give you some idea of where your NPA is, but it isn't exact.

Also, as you fatigue, your NPA will change. It will move towards the direction of whatever your strongest muscle is.

Furthermore, just because your arm likes to sit in a position doesn't mean it is necessarily a good position to hold a gun. What I mean is, if you determine your NPA makes your stance very closed, this means if you adopt this stance, you will have to either heavily modify your grip to push the sights right (assuming you are right handed), or, you will have to bend your wrist right (which is also undesirable). So, in that case, you are probably better off opening your stance a bit, at the cost of slightly incorrect NPA to aleviate some of the other issues.

Of course, like everything else, your NPA is also going to change over time because the more you shoot, the more you are using and strengthening certain muscles.

The best advice I can give you is to constantly check and make minor adjustments to your NPA/stance. Most people set their NPA once and think it never moves, but if you are training and shooting actively, chances are, there are always minor changes in it. So don't be afraid to make small changes to see how they feel. However, be aware of all the other factors when you rotate your stance, because your arm, wrist, and eye must all line up. It's all about finding that balance :-)

-trin

lets try it this way. do what you normally do raise you arm and go into the aiming area. next close your eyes. raise your arm again and slowly lower back to the same level as before and wait for 2 to 3 seconds. open your eyes are you still on target?

Target? What target?

I always find my natural position for arm, head, trunk, wrist, etc. where when I raise - There are the SIGHTS. Add a measure of stability and recoil management, then I shuffle my feet to the target.

Natural Position of Alignment.

Hi

The Leatherdale family shooting book states that you should check you NPA on every shot because, due to fatigue, it changes constantly. Personally, I shoot in one position until something gets tired. Usually that means I shoot two or three shots, put the gun down and move my arms a little. When I raise the pistol again, I check NPA again... I find that it helps to lean forward a little for Timed and Rapid fire.

Hope this helps.

Mike
Wichita KS

One point which hasn't been made here, hopefully because it is second nature to all, is that when you check your position you should use the same speed of rise as you use in that part of the match.

If you are about to shoot a rapid string in one of the 25m 30+30 matches then don't check your position using your precision rise speed. It is probable that it will bring you to the totally wrong settle position.

Natural point of aim seems to change far to often to ignore it i learned to establish a consistant foot position {Stance} set head position, take my grip ,then raise the pistol with closed eyes . I tried to stop at the level of my aiming area . I then opened my eyes and looked to verify sight alignment. Last step was to determine whether or not I was pointing dead center on my targer aiming area. I do not automaticly change foot position. First analize why the point of aim has changed. Often I could correct the error by simple streaching the supporting musclesn the opposite direction of the error.If this permited me to acheive my normal poa I was ready to reherse my shot sequence and be prepared to fire when the range commands permitted it. Good Shooting Bill Horton

_trinity_ wrote:Also, as you fatigue, your NPA will change. It will move towards the direction of whatever your strongest muscle is.

-trin

Could it be that if a shooter is not in a NPA position, fatigue will tend to move you towards the real NPA?

Related to this is that if a shooter gets 'flyers' in a constant direction, perhaps the NPA is towards that direction?

Spencer

Could it be that if a shooter is not in a NPA position, fatigue will tend to move you towards the real NPA?


Spencer[/quote]

I have a strong suspicion that the " N P A " is a myth... that there is no natural point of aim... that you just train your body into what you feel is your most comfortable shooting position.

I note that it is a very powerful myth.. and it will not be easy for many people on here to accept that it doesnt exist !

Elmas
.

"NPA" is of course a complex phenomenon with varied definitions.

Using the standard test for NPA (eyes closed, raise gun and point), you will find that your NPA will change in response to:

- width between heels
- angle described by insoles
- torso lean (straight or bend at waist)
- torso lean (amount)
- tension in neck
- weight & balance of pistol

in addition to all the regular stuff like grip and tension/fatigue in shoulder muscles etc.

Also, as already noted, by stretching various muscles you will move your NPA around . . . and, indeed, you can "train" your body to accept different NPAs fairly easily.

O.K., so what's "Natural" about "Natural Point of Aim" in the first place?

If you accept the somewhat fluid definition of NPA as being "the sweet spot of your comfortable stance/grip/head position that allows you to point consistently at the target" then NPA isn't that important and as long as you find a comfortable, repeatable combination then you're good to go.

If, however, you insist on the more demanding definiotn of NPA as being "that reliably consistent combination of stance, grip, lean, head position that results in the minimum arc of movement while settled in the aiming area," tehn NPA is critical and you will have to devote considerable time and effort into finding- and refining- it.

Just my $0.02 here but it seems like a fair number of world class athletes (throguh there coaches) take more of the second approach and spend a considerable amount of time studying it.

Steve Swartz

Steve, where is the part of NPA that naturally lines the sights up with the shooters eye?

Grip.

Actually, Grip and the angle between your feet and the line to the target.

But frankly, for my "Natural" PoA to line the sights up with my eye my feet would have to be pointed away from the target and I would need a ton of duct tape.

No, seriously- for the vast majority of people the sights can be brought into alignment during NPA by rotating the grip in the hand.

For some people (like me) my bones aren't put together that way. With my NPA I would have to either align the rear sight to target and rotate my hand inward, or alignth e front sight and rotate my hand outward.

Or assume a "negative" (feet pointed away from target) stance. The loss in stablity (and my neck doesn't bend that far anymore) from this exceedingly "open" stance is not wortht he comfort of seeing the sights relatively aligned with wrist relaxed.

You mileage will of course vary.

Re the comment about sights alligning with the shooting eye.This is why I adjusted my natural point of aim by streaching until I was able to use a consistant angle pointing toward the target. This permitted me to stabilize my head position, and gain consistancy in the relationship between the shooting eye and the sights. I would never advise changing the grip if it was giving me natural sight allignment, allowing my trigger finger to press the trigger in a way that did not disturb sight allignment,firm enough. to prevent the pistol from moving due to recoil. and the same from day to day. If it is comfortable I consider that a plus also. Good Shooting Bill Horton