Hi, I am new to the shooting scene (if you consider 1 year still new) and recently, thanks to a fellow shooter, I tried the SCATT (spelling with double TT?) and noticed that my hold on the sweet spot lasted only 2-3 seconds.
Can anyone recommend any training programme to improve my hold or is it something I should adapt to?
Thanks
Air Pistol Training to improve hold time
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Ed Hall
To improve your hold, perform some holding exercises.<smile>
Put a line on a white card and mount that on the wall (oriented vertically) at the proper height for your stance. Align yourself, as you would at a match, just a couple inches from the line. Bring the gun up to the line and hold for a few seconds really concentrating on keeping the front sight divided by the line. After a few times with the vertical line, take a break. When you return, spin the card so the line is horizontal and do the same exercise, this time trying to keep the top of the aligned sights exactly on the line. Let fatigue tell you how long to hold and how many repetitions.
You should discover that the time is increasing, but further, you should also be able to study your overlaying pattern of nulls in your hold. IOW, there will be times when you settle quite still. These times are what you want to discover - both when they occur and how long.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
Put a line on a white card and mount that on the wall (oriented vertically) at the proper height for your stance. Align yourself, as you would at a match, just a couple inches from the line. Bring the gun up to the line and hold for a few seconds really concentrating on keeping the front sight divided by the line. After a few times with the vertical line, take a break. When you return, spin the card so the line is horizontal and do the same exercise, this time trying to keep the top of the aligned sights exactly on the line. Let fatigue tell you how long to hold and how many repetitions.
You should discover that the time is increasing, but further, you should also be able to study your overlaying pattern of nulls in your hold. IOW, there will be times when you settle quite still. These times are what you want to discover - both when they occur and how long.
Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/
Buy a set of sights and mount them on a replica that you make, it doesn't even have to look like a gun. You want to approximate the grip and the wieght. You won't be able to do dryfire with it but you can still do holding exercises. I know a guy who travels with a 9.6 v corless drill and does holding exercises with it. If there is a will there is a way.BangBang wrote:Hi Ed,
Thanks for the tip! Sigh, we can't have airpistols at home in my country so I guess I can only do this with the limited time at the range. Well, at least now I know what I should be doing.
Thanks again.
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Guest
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jrmcdaniel
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:01 pm
- Location: Grantsville, MD
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Steve Swartz
Not sure to what you are referring. If your hold hovers 2-3 seconds over the sweet spot, your ability to hold is most assuredly not your weak point.
My hold is eight ring in diameter with brief excursions (much less than a second each) across the ten ring. Out of a 7 second hold time, I spend maybe 30% of that inside the ten ring; maybe 70% total inside the 9 ring (includes the ten ring of course); and the remaining 30% 8s or worse.
By focusing on what's really important (and it isn't hang time in the ten ring) I have allowed my scores to steadily increase.
Again, not sure that we aren't talking apples and oranges here with "time in sweet spot" definition.
Steve Swartz
My hold is eight ring in diameter with brief excursions (much less than a second each) across the ten ring. Out of a 7 second hold time, I spend maybe 30% of that inside the ten ring; maybe 70% total inside the 9 ring (includes the ten ring of course); and the remaining 30% 8s or worse.
By focusing on what's really important (and it isn't hang time in the ten ring) I have allowed my scores to steadily increase.
Again, not sure that we aren't talking apples and oranges here with "time in sweet spot" definition.
Steve Swartz
I would agree with Steve you do not need a long hold time I would say the final phase of releasing a shoot I would only hold on between 2 – 4 seconds.
If I hold on for longer that 4 or so seconds that is going to be the shot out in the edge of the nine or even eight.
So if my final phase of the shot process was longer than of 4 seconds I will stop and begin all over again. (easier said that done)
If I hold on for longer that 4 or so seconds that is going to be the shot out in the edge of the nine or even eight.
So if my final phase of the shot process was longer than of 4 seconds I will stop and begin all over again. (easier said that done)
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Steve Swartz
And again- during your terminal "2-4 seconds" you are probably not spending very much time in the ten ring at all; much less than you might think.
Bang Bang, go back and read the many threads in this forum about the "shot process" and I think that will help you focus your efforts. The last 200-300 milliseconds around the release of the shot are, quite frankly, all that matters. If you are in the nine ring moving across the ten ring when the shot begins to be released, everything will turn out o.k.
Steve Swartz
Bang Bang, go back and read the many threads in this forum about the "shot process" and I think that will help you focus your efforts. The last 200-300 milliseconds around the release of the shot are, quite frankly, all that matters. If you are in the nine ring moving across the ten ring when the shot begins to be released, everything will turn out o.k.
Steve Swartz
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2650 Plus
coordination of control factors
As Steve said, study your hold. Identify when the stillest period occurs [ most often] Apply a positive steadily increasing pressure to the trigger . before your still period is likely to occur. focus on the front sight and begin perfecting the sighting relationship. Its always nice to have the pistol fire before your vision blurrs or your concentration breaks. If it doesen't Stert the pressure sooner, or increase the pressure with a more aggressive rate, Or use a slightl increase in initial pressure Any one of whitch will allow you to fire the shot sooner. The idea is to shoot inside your physical limitations and not out on the ragged edge of failure. Good Shooting Bill Horton
Air Pistol to improve your hold time
Dear Bang Bang,
supporting Steve Swartz.
If your "time in the sweet spot" equates to the 9.5 ring or better your hold is definitely not a problem.
Your hold could be considered to be equal to or better than most shooting athletes outside the top twenty or so at World Cup competitions.
Cheers,
supporting Steve Swartz.
If your "time in the sweet spot" equates to the 9.5 ring or better your hold is definitely not a problem.
Your hold could be considered to be equal to or better than most shooting athletes outside the top twenty or so at World Cup competitions.
Cheers,
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Lanning R. Hochhauser
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:45 am
- Location: Illinois
Use an aiming point one day and a blank wall the next for this one.
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 55 sec
Lower pistol for 45 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 60 sec
Lower pistol for 50 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 65 sec
Lower pistol for 50 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 70 sec
Lower pistol for 50 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 75 sec
Lower pistol for 50 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 70 sec
Lower pistol for 5o sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 65 sec
Lower pistol for 45 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 60 sec
Lower pistol for 45 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 55 sec
finished
As you go through this drill your hold will get wider and shakey, but after 6 or 7 days you will notice it narrowing down and firming up.
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 55 sec
Lower pistol for 45 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 60 sec
Lower pistol for 50 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 65 sec
Lower pistol for 50 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 70 sec
Lower pistol for 50 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 75 sec
Lower pistol for 50 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 70 sec
Lower pistol for 5o sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 65 sec
Lower pistol for 45 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 60 sec
Lower pistol for 45 sec
Raise pistol to NPA, break shot and hold sight picture for 55 sec
finished
As you go through this drill your hold will get wider and shakey, but after 6 or 7 days you will notice it narrowing down and firming up.
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CR10XGuest
Ok, here's something from the far left field. If you want to make you hold pattern smaller, then you need to move more. What! That Rhodes guy been drinking again?
Look this on only a training suggestion, but I've found that the older I get, the better it works. So if you're try to reduce those "unexplained" excursions into the 8 ring and beyond or just trying to build up some holding stamina, give this a try.
Get set up on the target and get the front sight in focus. Now make sprial clockwise circles with your hold (sight picture) starting outside the black and getting smaller and smaller until you stop in the middle of your selected sight picture. Hold for just a second or so and focus on the front sight, but remember that sight picture just like you're watching a movie. Then stop and think about the best time for your shot. Do this a few times and then switch to counter-clockwise sprials. Remember, we're not even dry-firing, this is a "not" holding exercise.
Here we are developing stamina in the hold, but also a couple of other things. First that it's ok to see movement in the sight picture, just keep the alighment correct. Next we are physically learning the sense of motion and feedback to help control the hold. Not over control or under control, but just enough to get to our comfortable minimum and not over-react. Much better to have a smooth flowing hold than learning a "stop and jerk it, either trigger or gun" process.
Hey, give it a try. Remember, we're supposed to be learning to get to the center smoothly and consistently.
That's enough weirdness for today.
Look this on only a training suggestion, but I've found that the older I get, the better it works. So if you're try to reduce those "unexplained" excursions into the 8 ring and beyond or just trying to build up some holding stamina, give this a try.
Get set up on the target and get the front sight in focus. Now make sprial clockwise circles with your hold (sight picture) starting outside the black and getting smaller and smaller until you stop in the middle of your selected sight picture. Hold for just a second or so and focus on the front sight, but remember that sight picture just like you're watching a movie. Then stop and think about the best time for your shot. Do this a few times and then switch to counter-clockwise sprials. Remember, we're not even dry-firing, this is a "not" holding exercise.
Here we are developing stamina in the hold, but also a couple of other things. First that it's ok to see movement in the sight picture, just keep the alighment correct. Next we are physically learning the sense of motion and feedback to help control the hold. Not over control or under control, but just enough to get to our comfortable minimum and not over-react. Much better to have a smooth flowing hold than learning a "stop and jerk it, either trigger or gun" process.
Hey, give it a try. Remember, we're supposed to be learning to get to the center smoothly and consistently.
That's enough weirdness for today.
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Steve Swartz
Cecil:
I use a "star shaped pattern" with long-duration focused hold in the center . . . same idea, but you're right, it works!
Keeping the sights perfectly aligned while the gun is moving is a lot harder than it might seem at first. If you can keep the sights aligned while it's moving A LOT that will help you keep them aligned while they are moving a little in your settled phase.
Steve Swartz
I use a "star shaped pattern" with long-duration focused hold in the center . . . same idea, but you're right, it works!
Keeping the sights perfectly aligned while the gun is moving is a lot harder than it might seem at first. If you can keep the sights aligned while it's moving A LOT that will help you keep them aligned while they are moving a little in your settled phase.
Steve Swartz
Look at the hold of Vladimir Goncharov
http://ematch.scatt.com/?e=AP10&s=Gontcharov+Vladimir
It is amazing.
You will need to install Scatt Professional software.
http://www.scatt.com/support.htm
http://ematch.scatt.com/?e=AP10&s=Gontcharov+Vladimir
It is amazing.
You will need to install Scatt Professional software.
http://www.scatt.com/support.htm
funtoz wrote:Steve -
This may be a bit presumptuous, but would you be willing to share a Rika session? Rika has a Mat Emmons session for download. While interesting, it is not as useful as seeing a decent pistol shooter's performance.
Larry
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Steve Swartz
Larry:
I'll have my laptop with me at the USASNC next week- more than happy to give you (or anyone interested) access to my files. When I get back I cuold send you the files if I don't see you there.
Taking away the truly horrible days, you can see pretty quickly that on my traces at least there is no appreciable difference in hold or wobble between a "550 session" and a "570" session.
Freaky.
You will, however, see abig difference in trigger quality- and releases that happen when the sights are moving *toward* the center ten(subconscious release) vs. when they are moving *away* from the center ten (obviousl,y a conscious release).
All other things being equal (like hold) concentrating 100% on alignment and NOT thinking about alignment is definitely the way to go . . .
. . . at least it seems that way for me.
Steve Swartz
I'll have my laptop with me at the USASNC next week- more than happy to give you (or anyone interested) access to my files. When I get back I cuold send you the files if I don't see you there.
Taking away the truly horrible days, you can see pretty quickly that on my traces at least there is no appreciable difference in hold or wobble between a "550 session" and a "570" session.
Freaky.
You will, however, see abig difference in trigger quality- and releases that happen when the sights are moving *toward* the center ten(subconscious release) vs. when they are moving *away* from the center ten (obviousl,y a conscious release).
All other things being equal (like hold) concentrating 100% on alignment and NOT thinking about alignment is definitely the way to go . . .
. . . at least it seems that way for me.
Steve Swartz
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John Ariani
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:25 pm
Thanks Shin. That's a great link to look at the hold of Vladmir Gontcharov. Absolutely incredible.
I've an obvious question. Concensus of opinion here is for the trigger sqeeze (pressure) to start once the sights enter the 'hold'settle' area - and must remain continous. I notice that watching the SCATT trace for Vladmir that his holding time in this area was quite long - between about 9 secs to 13 secs.
I know it's speculation - but does that mean his continuos squeeze of the trigger lasts for 9sec - 13 secs???
If it doesn't, am I right in drawing the conclusion that he gets into the settle area - then spends a few seconds there - and then starts his trigger squeeze? The trigger action is usually around 3 seconds or less - right?
Maybe I've got this all too mixed up - but watching the Vladmir trace in a 60 shot match where he scored 591 - I found it fascinating that his trigger squeeze must have been at least 9 seconds each time - resulting in fifty one tens and nine nines.
I'd love Ed, Steve, Ruslan and others to give their interpretation on this. Thanks
I've an obvious question. Concensus of opinion here is for the trigger sqeeze (pressure) to start once the sights enter the 'hold'settle' area - and must remain continous. I notice that watching the SCATT trace for Vladmir that his holding time in this area was quite long - between about 9 secs to 13 secs.
I know it's speculation - but does that mean his continuos squeeze of the trigger lasts for 9sec - 13 secs???
If it doesn't, am I right in drawing the conclusion that he gets into the settle area - then spends a few seconds there - and then starts his trigger squeeze? The trigger action is usually around 3 seconds or less - right?
Maybe I've got this all too mixed up - but watching the Vladmir trace in a 60 shot match where he scored 591 - I found it fascinating that his trigger squeeze must have been at least 9 seconds each time - resulting in fifty one tens and nine nines.
I'd love Ed, Steve, Ruslan and others to give their interpretation on this. Thanks
Hi steve, dont mean to pick on you but a conscious shot will fall within your hold randomly, a shot where you are not comfortable will usually be on the way out, and a well focused shot on the way in.
very uncomfortable shots can break early. slightly uncomfortable shots can have good follow through, but not be in the middle.
just to name a few
John, I havent seen vladmir's hold, but suspect it is the same as many world class pistol shooters I have watched over the years using scatt etc.
you could track him down and ask him, rather than speculate.
probably find it is not that hard to contact him, send your question to scatt, see if they will pass it on, or give you his contact details.
get his permission to post it!
it is unlikely he starts the trigger moving and doesnt stop as some suggest, a doubt you could shoot 590+ like that.
imho
bryan
very uncomfortable shots can break early. slightly uncomfortable shots can have good follow through, but not be in the middle.
just to name a few
John, I havent seen vladmir's hold, but suspect it is the same as many world class pistol shooters I have watched over the years using scatt etc.
you could track him down and ask him, rather than speculate.
probably find it is not that hard to contact him, send your question to scatt, see if they will pass it on, or give you his contact details.
get his permission to post it!
it is unlikely he starts the trigger moving and doesnt stop as some suggest, a doubt you could shoot 590+ like that.
imho
bryan
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Steve Swartz
Bryan:
Pick away . . . a conscious shot is one where you tell your finger to release the shot; of course you do this when the sight picture is "perfect." Therefore, by the time the pellet actually clears the muzzle the muzzle is not longer in the ten ring.
Therefore, conscious release is indicated by shot falling as muzzle is mving away.
Conversely, for subconscious release, your brain is automatically "leading" (like in trap, skeet) the muzzle paint as it swings into the ten ring. Shot falling while muzzle is tracking inward indicates subconscious release.
Note my assumption that I do not try to consciously apply "lead" to my shots. That has been tried by a few really experienced world class shooters in the past and apparently doesn't work out so well.
As to shooters spending 9 seconds in the ten ring, my only question would be why do they watch the first 20 tens go by and choose to shoot the 21st?
That's a puzzler. Maybe they aren't paying attention for the first 8.9 seconds?
Like I said before- having a ten ring hold is a great thing- it's just not necessary to shoot lots of tens (40+ out of 60). Wish I had a better hold. But since I don't, my choices are 1) quit or 2) work with the genetics I already have!
Steve Swartz
Pick away . . . a conscious shot is one where you tell your finger to release the shot; of course you do this when the sight picture is "perfect." Therefore, by the time the pellet actually clears the muzzle the muzzle is not longer in the ten ring.
Therefore, conscious release is indicated by shot falling as muzzle is mving away.
Conversely, for subconscious release, your brain is automatically "leading" (like in trap, skeet) the muzzle paint as it swings into the ten ring. Shot falling while muzzle is tracking inward indicates subconscious release.
Note my assumption that I do not try to consciously apply "lead" to my shots. That has been tried by a few really experienced world class shooters in the past and apparently doesn't work out so well.
As to shooters spending 9 seconds in the ten ring, my only question would be why do they watch the first 20 tens go by and choose to shoot the 21st?
That's a puzzler. Maybe they aren't paying attention for the first 8.9 seconds?
Like I said before- having a ten ring hold is a great thing- it's just not necessary to shoot lots of tens (40+ out of 60). Wish I had a better hold. But since I don't, my choices are 1) quit or 2) work with the genetics I already have!
Steve Swartz