TargetTalk

As you improve do you adjust your sights normally?Which shots are the good shots? Maybe the one or two 10 hits are the fliers. How can we tell?

dart,

Until you shoot good groups (clusters of shots in one well-defined area) it is hard to get a good sight setting. Always adjust your sights so that your group is centered on the maximum scoring ring. When I first started shooting it seemed as though I was always tinkering with my sight settings. Once I advanced, I hardly changed my sight settings unless lighting or wind was a factor. Sometimes I make minor sight adjustments because my grip on the pistol is a little different on a given day. I can usually attribute that to my physical condition. That doesn't happen very often.

It's not unusual at all for me to make minor adjustments at the beginning of any shooting session. This is true even when I'm shooting on the same range with the same lighting conditions. Adjusting sights in the middle of a session/match is not nearly as common for me but it does happen.

I just try to avoid chasing the sights which means making sight adjustments based on one or two shots. Misny makes a good point - make sure you are shooting groups before tinkering with those screws. The better you get, the less shots you will need to start forming groups.

I have been told that aside from lighting conditions etc, adjusting sights is sometimes necessary becuase of a change in stance, grip or head position.

F. Paul in Denver

One of the fundamental skills of shooting is shot calling. You should know where your shots went because you were looking at the sights at the time. You should be able to call fliers by the direction the sights moved at the time of the shot release. You also need to have good follow through as well as without that it can be difficult to concentrate on the sights up to the very last minute.

I adjust my sights anything up to a dozen times in a match. The point of impact will change with tiredness, eye fatigue, muscle weakness or just changes - all of which happens throughout a shoot. I would suggest it's very useful to know when to adjust the sights and never be afraid to do so. Remember also a single click is perhaps a couple of mm at 10M - that aint going to make a whole lot of difference, but can make those 9.9's become tens.

Rob.

Is it "Normal?"

Not really.

It is perhaps a symptom of some other underlying issue(s).

What is the nature of your "corrections?"

Steve Swartz

Steve Swartz wrote:Is it "Normal?"

Not really.

It is perhaps a symptom of some other underlying issue(s).

What is the nature of your "corrections?"

Steve Swartz

Steve,
Which bit do you think is not normal ? Adjusting sights is a very normal activity. Light levels, tiredness etc all play a part in affecting the POI so I don't really follow your train of thought.

Rob.

I would agree with rob I adjust my sights nearly every time I shoot it fine tuning and never turn up to a competition and not adjusted my sights.

Rob:

Although we've "had this out" in this forum before, it is somewhat controversial so bears additional explanation.

I maintain- against a steady stream of criticism from most quarters- that the sight adjustments actually caused by changes in lighting, tired eyes etc. are quite small and indeed trivial enough to be ignored. Well, O.K., on my Free Pistol when changing from indoor 50 ft to outdoor Texas sunshine 50 m yes, I will allow a few clicks are indeed in order. Unless it is a very *radical* change in lighting, however, the adjustment is not needed.

Yes, I know what all the old salts claim from shooting iron sights outdoors in "bullseye" type shooting competitions is a pretty hefty pile of anecdotal folklore. But I disagree to the most strenuous degree! I characterize this mythology as another example (there are plenty, believe me!) of stories told by the more experienced shooters that are relayed 1) to gain psychological edge (what? you don't change your sights as the sun moves across your sights?!) and 2) "knowledge" passed down by old sarge until it becomes accepted.

However

The need for sight adjustments are most definitely experienced by us all; particularly novice shooters. And older shooters with (shall we say) spotty consistency in execution.

Why is that?

Frequently, we can move the POI by inches (yards!) by inconsistent technique. Poor trigger release is the obvious case. Inconsistencies in grip, stance, etc can also be to blame.

The adjustments "required" by lighting changes are on the order of fractions of millimeters (if that), while the adjustments required by inconsistent technique are ginormous.

So

If our friend is twiddling with his sights he is receiving a huge warning signal about his technique. Frequent sight adjustments are a symptom of other issues.

If "all of a sudden" your shots are landing 3mm left and 2mm high, there is a REASON for it. Don't take a placebo (adjusting the sights), CURE what ails you!

Yes, Yes, I know this is a "Contrarian" opinion. Coming from me- what a shocker!

Steve

Steve

Whilst I agree in general with your argument, it is with 2 provisos.

1) When using electronic targets it is quite common for a sight adjustment to be needed to re-zero to a particular target. This is normally only 1-2 clicks.

2) If you are shooting in a match, make the sight adjustment and take the extra points. Training sessions are the time to make your technique more consistent. In that respect the amount of clicks you use during a match could give feedback on the effectiveness of your training.

I am pretty much with Steve here. Generally altering the sights is a way of avoiding a problem caused by changing a stance, grip, head alignment or whatever.
The hardest part is recognising what has suddenly caused your "perfectly released shots" to start hitting the 8 ring. I used to fiddle with the sights and then have to move them back later in the match when I started getting shots on the other side of the bull.
Now if I start to group "good shots" outside the bull, I go through about a 20 point check-up to see if there is something I have missed. It might be something as simple as having different shoes, sloping ground, different clothes to normal or it might be harder to detect like strained eyes from looking at the computer too much, swollen hands from fluid retention (that's my most common one nowadays).
Anyhow, look for the problem and see if you can correct it before you start twiddling with the sights.
By the way if I detect that my hands are swollen (usually when I pick up the gun and the grip feels tight) I shoot 4 clicks to the left of the bull. In this case I make the sight adjustment but return it immediately after the match. Next time I might not be as fluid retentive.

Doctor Lindeman's?
(an Australian joke)

Spencer

Steve Swartz wrote:Rob:

Although we've "had this out" in this forum before, it is somewhat controversial so bears additional explanation.

<snipped out the 'meat' >

Steve

Steve,
I know you like empirical stuff so here goes ;-)

My club range has poor lighting - say 500-600 Lux (I have measured it and I know it's in that region). At Bisley the lighting is correct at 1500 lux. Now my brain <subconscious> has grown up used to 600 Lux and a gap of whatever between foresight and black - my sub six hold. Now I move to the brighter range and all of a sudden the amount of light my brain needs is catered for by roughly half the distance. Not only does that make scientific sense it actually happens in practice (and that was before the logic was explained to me). I don't hwever understand why I sometimes need to tweek left or right but I do. Now it may be technical errors but whatever they are they are consistent across the match and my sights are therefore adjusted accordingly.

Rob.

ColinC wrote: Anyhow, look for the problem and see if you can correct it before you start twiddling with the sights.

Oh dear, I've got to disagree with that. You do not want to start searching for problems in a match. You can find problems you didn't have, convince yourself such and such is wrong and then still shoot off, or equally likely make things worse.

In a match you should concentrate on doing the shot sequence right and getting off good technical shots. By 'fault finding' mid match you just break up the mental cycle and inject a dose of negative energy. A sure fire way of getting poor results. Sure evaluate things post match and work on any errors in training - but score doesn't matter then.

Rob.

I shot in a Bullseye match yesterday. It's been a while since shooting the .45. First precision target at 50 yds, I shot a nice group of 10 shots about half a foot directly right of center; all in the white. The person scoring my target asked if there was a problem with my sights and strongly advised me to crank them to the left. I explained that it had nothing to do with the sights and that I felt I was tightening my grip due to the heavier feeling trigger and applying thumb pressure at release. The next target had an amazingly tight group (for me) in the center. My scorer asked how many clicks I made before shooting that target. He still doesn't believe what I told him. None.

Dennis

I have a personal habit and that is I always take my first target ( in practise) and successively use it as a "backer" for all following targets. I can generally see the possible necessity of adjusting the sights from the pattern of shots. However, that being said, in some bullseye matches, I have made adjustments on the slow fire basis---to shoot Timed and Rapid, with a reasonable degree of success----IMHO only.