TargetTalk

Hello everybody


In your opinion, which Gun is the best for 25m Centerfire.

Pistol or revolver?

.32 or .38 ?

Which make/model?

AND WHY....


Please give all your info on this subject.


Shoot well

DK Shooter

Have you done some searches on here and seen what the posters suggested ? The question isn't a new one, and neither will the answers be.

Rob.

DK,

Rob is right, you can find alot of information by doing a search on this site. Let me add that I have never seen a serious ISSF shooter use a revolver for the CF (Men's 25 meter match). I think that's a pretty strong statement in favor of semi autos. That is not to say that a revolver cant be shot well or that revolvers are less accurate for this event. They are just not favored.

The most often seen guns on the line in this event are the Walther, Hammerli and Pardini. I’ve seen some Benellis (MP 90) , some FAS (CF603) and Morinis (CM32M) but they are very
uncommon.

Which one will work out best for you is something only you can decide after trying them out. Get yourself to a club and shoot as many as you can to try out first.

You can log onto www.targetshooting.ca and navigate to the "Competition Arms Database" to see some reviews and specs for all kinds of target guns. It's a great resource for newcomers.

Good luck


F. Paul in Denver

And since you don't mention what previous exposure you may have had to international shooting, may I offer a suggestion? If you haven't already tried standard pistol (SP), that would likely be a better place to start than centerfire (CF). The .22 ammo's cheaper, there's less recoil to get in the way of developing good skills and there are lot more SP matches than CF matches. Also, the same gun you get for SP can also be used in NRA bullseye (BE) matches, which are also very popular.

there are lot more SP matches than CF matches.

ummmmmmm I guess that depends on what you call SP or where you are.

Here in Phoenix there is a lot more NRA bullseye (.22 event is similar to SP but not quite) but we have a CF league every 2 weeks and a PTO in all 5 guns once a month

I use a Pardini HP in .32 and cannot recommend anything else.

shoot good

Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/

Bill Poole wrote:I use a Pardini HP in .32 and cannot recommend anything else.

Well, you know I'm a Pardini fan, too. I have four of them: the K22 FP, two SP's (original set up for NRA and New set up for international) and the HP. I shoot the K22 and one or the other of the SP's in a match pretty much every week. But though I've had the HP for about 5 years, I still haven't had an opportunity to shoot it in a match! Then again, I only shoot whatever's local.

As usual, Nicole makes an excellent point. Come to think of it, I did exactly what she suggested, more or less by accident.

I started out shooting .22 matches with a Pardini. For CF, I used a very nice SW model 14 revolver and later, a brand new Colt Python revolver. While they are both great guns, I didnt think either one of them were very well suited for me and the CF discipline. Then I thought to myself that if I liked my Pardini .22 so much, why not buy a Pardini .32 as well since the guns are virtually identical?


Based on the research I did prior to buying my first Pardini, I knew that if I didnt like it, I could easily sell it and recoup most of my investment because they hold their value so well. The Pardini twins are now my primary and favorite guns.

Starting out with a .22 is good advice if you are just getting geared up.


F. Paul in Denver

I sortuv assumed DK Shooter (is that .dk ?) already shot .22 and was looking to expand. yeah, .22 is better for a beginner (I like the pardini SP)

Nicole... once the weather gets cooler, come down here and shoot with us in Phoenix

Poole

Bill Poole wrote:yeah, .22 is better for a beginner

My rule of thumb is that anytime you go to a range, especially during public hours, the worst shooter will always have the biggest gun.

Shooters who want to get good, especially anyone serious about competition, will shoot hundreds, if not thousands or tens of thousands of rounds of .22 or AP for every round of CF, especially any big CF. If you can learn to shoot .22 really well, you can shoot anything. But learning to shoot on a big CF is a different proposition because it's so easy to develop a flinch and so hard to cure it. The big "hand cannons" are fun from time to time, which is why I have a bunch of them, but mine spend most of their time in the safe.

I always try to make a point of this when I teach the NRA Basic Pistol class. Inevitably, when the time comes to go out on the line for some live fire exercises (and since our classes are always on weekends during public hours) there's always at least one obliging, completely egregious example of someone shooting a gun that's way too big for them. The ones I love are the guys with a two-handed death-grip on .44mag on a benchrest, still only barely able to keep the shots on the paper. Kaboom! "Look at me! I can shoot a .44! (Sort of.) Anyone see where that round went?"

You watch and they're doing everything wrong! Worse, you'll then often as not see them hand the same gun to their 9-yo kids. What are they thinking?! Are they even having fun?

Afterward, back in the classroom, having been told what to watch for, it's not uncommon for students to remark, yeah, I see what you mean.

DK Shooter wrote:Hello everybody


In your opinion, which Gun is the best for 25m Centerfire.

Pistol or revolver?

.32 or .38 ?

As others have said, there are heaps of previous postings looking at different CF guns - just use the "search" option. One thing I will add is that most revolvers (either in .38 or (much rarer) .32) are far more punishing of minor errors than are semi-autos. With a revolver, sight alignment, trigger squeze etc needs to be bang-on. When it is, you get a 10. The slightest error and it seems to be an 8 or worse. Conversly most semi autos seem to be much more tolerant of minor errors (excluding that even rarer breed of .38 WC semi autos most which seem to be as bad as revolvers)

Hello again

Thank you for all your replies.

Nicole:
I am not a beginner at all. I've practised shooting for more the 15 years now and been seriously competing for the last 3 or 4.
My question was based on the fact that I allready own 2 Pardinis, SP2 and HPnew.
I was just looking for other thoughts and experiences.
My problem is with the HP. obviously.
I need another gun, My HP is simply not reliable enough. Sorry.
My dealer has accepted the faults and is willing to take the gun back.

So now I'm looking for something else...

Bill:
Well you guessed it, I live in Denmark.

Now I'm very curious about other guns, revolvers in particular.
My first thought was a Manurhin or maybe a S&W.
What do you think about that? I mean other thoughts, than previous stated on this thread.

Have a nice weekend

DK Shooter

P.S. I apologize for any typos, misspellings and bad grammar. English is not my 1st choice.... :o)

As to "nobody" using a revolver for CF: I think I remember David Moore, a top Australian international shooter, saying on Target Talk that he uses a revolver in CF competition. Perhaps if he is listening, he will expand on this?

My own limited experience using a revolver for CF, at my own, shall we say, "less than top level" ability, was much more positive than "Guest" indicates above. I did not find it any more "unforgiving" than a semi-auto (why should it be?), and I liked having to cock it in between rapid series shots, because it seemed to help me develop a consistent rhythm.

There are some other peripheral advantages: if you save your brass for reloading, a revolver has a built-in brass catcher, and in a revolver you can use a very soft-recoiling load that wouldn't begin to function in a semi-auto (not that recoil is that much of an issue in the CF match).

FWIW, HTH, YMMV, ETC
FredB

DK Shooter wrote: Now I'm very curious about other guns, revolvers in particular.
My first thought was a Manurhin or maybe a S&W.
What do you think about that? I mean other thoughts, than previous stated on this thread.

I used to have a TOZ 49 revolver chambered in .32 S&W long. I found (like "guest") that it punished me for the slightest error in technique. This was perhaps in part because until I purchased the Toz, I had only used European semi-autos with "creeping" triggers and couldn’t get used to the crisp revolver trigger. In the end I purchased a FAS 603 which seems to be far more forgiving - though now with more experience I really regret selling the TOZ and wish I had spent more time with it.

If you are interested in shooting CF with a revolver, a Toz 49 in .32 is still pretty fine and is one of the few revolvers with a user-adjustable trigger. It’s also reasonably priced and being in Denmark you may have a greater chance of sourcing one than what folks outside of Europe would. One thing with the Toz 49 though is that the cylinder does not swing out so it takes a bit longer to reload and unloading spent shells is murder on your fingernails.

Manurhin's are nice but expensive however if money is no problem, Korth do make target revolvers. A shooter I know recently paid an eye-watering price for a Korth in .32 with a target grip. It is exquisitely made - but at that price it should be.

Another option worth investigating could be a Czech made Alfa revolver in a target configuration (e.g. 3263 Sport or 3863 Sport. See http://www.alfa-proj.cz. Though I have not used one, I have heard good things about them via an Australian shooter and they are apparently excellent value for money. Again - being in Europe you may have a better chance of sourcing one of these than what many other shooters around the world would.

First of all, I've watched Russian, Byelorussian, and Ukrainian shooters (and other East Europeans) shoot TOZ-49's in the 7.62 Sport cartridge (not .32 S&W Long) at CISM competitions for the CF event. There scores did not suffer at all. So, revolvers are still in use by top shooters.
My own personal experience is mostly with the Walther GSP and with the Hammerli 280. Both are excellent guns. The Walther has more adjustability than the Hammerli 280. My preference was for the old single stage trigger. The advantage of the 280 was in terms of reliability. It tolerated much more gunk in the mechanism without misfeeding. With the GSP I found that dirty .32 magazines would very quickly cause misfeeds. If I were going to buy my own today (as the one I use is on loan) I would get a Walther GSP, and I would hunt for a single stage trigger since my fingers are short. One grip; two pistols (CF and SP), and it takes all of 20 seconds to convert from one to the other. The Walther has a reputation that is hard to equal, let alone beat. But, you need to keep the magazines quite clean. Buy lots of them, and use a different one every ten rounds. I've tried revolvers (S&W K-.38's) and they shot very well, but they were too big for my hands. I think that revolvers have two advantages; they don't misfeed, and the front end is quite light compared to a semi-auto, so they can be raised a little more quickly for the rapid fire stage of the CF event. You have to get out of position toe cock the hammer if you use your other hand though.

I now own a pardini HP but I loaned a GSP for a little while. I never had any feed problems and used the same mag for 100's of rounds. I also never really cleaned it thoroughly. I would suggest it very much depends on the ammo used and the specific gun / mag. Some may be more fickle than others.

Rob.

Hello

Thank you All, for your thoughts.

I was in Zagreb the past week and a half....
And I brought my Pardini...

My luck was that the Pardini service team also were there, and they gave me (my gun) a complete overhaul.
For which i am very gratefull.

It was Sergio Pardini who fixed it. It now works beautifully.
The trigger is way beyond crisp, it is, in lack of a better word, PERFECT.
Sergio replaced the entire Mechanism, threw in a new trigger and a couple of mags.... completely free of charge. THANK YOU.

The problem was not "a bad gun", but the fact that I bought and mounted, an un-original triggershoe. From a german store on the web.

The problem was/is the "plate", (that holds the shoe), you fix to the sear, is too long.
It simply goes way back into the gun and F...s up the mechanism. (pardon my French). So you should be carefull if you own one of these "shoes".

So now I must admit, I am not going to sell my Pardini just yet. I think there a lots of 10's left in it. It's like getting a whole new gun, and i love it.

But I am still curious about using a revolver for CF.
In Zagreb I saw Mikhail Nestruev shoot with a Revolver. I think it was a TOZ-49 or something. He won Silver after an exiting shoot off, against a Swiss athlete named Michael Hoffmann. That would be an exellent argument for using a revolver....


Steve:
I have seen the Alfa, and it looks promising. I have tried to dry fire with it and seems to be a very good buy for the money.
The old Walther's are not to my liking, the grip angle is way to upright and as such to different from my other guns, plus the rear sights are very small. But the function and reliabillity is very good.


DK Shooter

DK Shooter wrote:In Zagreb I saw Mikhail Nestruev shoot with a Revolver. I think it was a TOZ-49 or something. He won Silver after an exiting shoot off, against a Swiss athlete named Michael Hoffmann. That would be an exellent argument for using a revolver....

Ah but using your logic, an even better argument would be to use the gun that won ;-)

Rob.

DK Shooter wrote:In Zagreb I saw Mikhail Nestruev shoot with a Revolver. I think it was a TOZ-49 or something. He won Silver after an exiting shoot off, against a Swiss athlete named Michael Hoffmann. That would be an exellent argument for using a revolver....

All that it proves is that Nestruev can shoot very well with a revolver. The fact that he can also shoot very well with single shots and semi-autos is more of an arguement for losing the fixation with equipment and concentrating instead on becoming as skillful as him.

I used an S&W Model 16 (.32 revolver) for a few years, no longer made and I regret getting rid of it. Very accurate, it could shoot 10's all day long. Put a Millet adjustable rear sight on it, and a wider front blade. Best I got out of her was a 575, but that was operator error on my part. And when used for Service Unrestricted, no need to worry about an auto as the semi-auto boys often had. Had some brass .32 jetloaders to help on the reloading stages.

I have been on the same quest - what gun to shoot CF with?

There has been much discussion about .32 S&W Long ammo, here and elsewhere. My experience backs that up, with several different guns (Walther, Pardini, Toz, Manhurin - all belonging to other people). The concensus seems to be that flyers are more likely in this caliber, compared to a .38 special. If you can shoot factory ammo this is less of an issue, but if you want to or have to reload, .32 S&W Long will drive you nuts.

I find the standard S&W revolver grips horrible. They flare at the bottom, completely opposite to a human hand. The trigger (when cocked for SA) seems at an awkward angle. The trigger is single stage - which I found a challenge after the almost perfect FWB AW93 trigger.

BUT then I got a decent (KN Nill) grip on a Model 14. Wow! It now fits my hand, and has lowered the bore line considerably. The smooth trigger is so easy to "lean" on early. Even with the standard sights (which I want to replace, see another post), it still shoots like a dream.

Oh, and in the ransom rest, 100 shots in the X ring (actually about 18mm), no flyers. Try that with a .32.