TargetTalk

I'm going to step out of character for a thread, to see if I can get some further input on a phenomenon I've been experiencing during my slow fire in a variety of disciplines.

My normal philosophy is to highlight the things that work and ignore anything else, as those who've read other posts from me can (hopefully) verify. This time, I'd like to address something that seems to remain a thorn in my shooting, and unfortunately (and detrimentally), a curiosity...

Some background:

I shoot a variety of disciplines with Bullseye (High Master Classification) being foremost. I can turn in 550-570 AP, 520-535 FP, but don't train or compete much in the last two. I bring them up, because I experience the same thorn in all three, and with both open and dot type sights.

The thorn, specifically:

During otherwise good slow fire targets, I experience shots that, for lack of a better explanation, appear to be locked, such that the sights appear to hover perfectly over the Area of Aim, but the shot doesn't happen - until the exact instant something, anything, changes. This change can be a slight defocusing of the sight, a movement out of the aiming area, a momentary break in concentration, even a determination to abort. The trigger operation seems to stop, without my immediate notice, just the slightest fraction away from firing. It only completes when my focus slips/shifts.

It would seem as though the concentration I have is the set for the trigger, but the final firing can't occur until the concentration is broken by some means. IOW, the shot can't happen while I'm focusing that intensely.

All comments are always welcomed...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

that damn 500 lb trigger

Poole

My goodness Ed, you are HUMAN afterall. Welcome to the club.

My pet peeve on my own shooting is that despite the 50yd range being only 20 miles away, and I don't get out there more than 2-3 times a month average. And I dryfire 2-3 times a week in between and those sessions go very well. BUT when I get to the range, does my shooting go as the dryfires went? No! They go sometimes like you describe. Arrrgh!

Ah, the dredded finger freeze.

It would appear that you are trying to fire a deliberate shot and that something may not be perfect, so the shot does not happen.
I will also bet that your pistol is set up with a very crisp and light second stage.

To break this type of trigger freeze, try this:-
1/ Make the second stage a little heavier ie airpistol 150-200 gram.
2/ Lengthen the travel of the second stage (not possible on some pistols) so that it has a very small amount of travel.

This will change the moment that the shot breaks for you so that you will now have to watch the foresight and squeeze off the shot. It will help break up your thinking and alow the shot to flow.

Hi Ed,

The late Bob Chow, great gunsmith and former Olympian, used to talk about the danger of "falling in love with your sights." I think he meant something like zoning out on the perception of a perfect sight picture so that the usual shot process is interrupted. Is that what you are doing? If so, all I can report is that Bob said "don't do it." I haven't experienced this, but I have certainly experienced "chicken finger." I think they may be two different things, the latter stemming from a search for perfection, and the former from finding it ;-)

Regards,
FredB

Thanks for all the input. I'll try to address each and all points from my perspective, keeping in mind that we sometimes have difficulty recognizing in ourselves the very issue we find so apparent elsewhere.

Hi Jack,

Was there any doubt? This is an observation I've been becoming more aware of as I close in on my half-century mark...

You bring to mind the saying, "Dry Fire like it's live and Live Fire like it's dry." I've had some really good Slow Fire targets where I was so involved in the thought of dry fire that the recoil actually was a total surprise... And, through my trigger work, I do try to build up to the same operation whether dry or live.

Hi David,

I suppose this may be a form of the "finger freeze," however this manifestation appears when everything is fine and only breaks when something shifts. Further, it occurs with all my various triggers from the Free at several grams up to a Service Pistol with over 4 pounds pull. I have also played with various types of pull over the years, going as far as removing the second stage from my 208s, such that I had an extremely long pull, and even adding a very long roll to my Free Pistol for awhile. (I was actually able to "pump" the trigger without it firing.) All seemed to display the same phenomenon after a short familiarization.

Hi Fred,

It is quite possible that I am reveling in the beauty of the moment, but I have a good hold normally and expect the picture to look good. In the past I have had times when things looked extremely great and fired perfect targets on purpose. In fact, my very first 10x target in BE was on purpose, because everything looked so great, and I didn't have one yet. Of course, those days were then and I may now be experiencing something old, presented in an unrecognizable wrapper.


I am also entertaining the thought that this is just a manifestation of keeping myself rooted into my comfort zone, but unfortunately, if that is the case, my comfort zone has fallen a bit over the last couple of years. And, it doesn't feel that comfortable.<smile>

Again - Thanks for all the comments. More are always welcome...

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

HI Ed,
That is fascinating!
When you visualize, do you see the sights and target in the prefect sight picture? Do you see it in the exact moment of time that we use to call the shot, when the sights disappear to be replaced with the little fireball or just the perfect sight picture that lasts forever?
Bob Fleming

I think that this is the most common problem among pistol shooters. Trigger feels like it is stuck, almost welded to the pistol. Sights are perfectly alligned and sight picture is good. Why doesn't the god damn gun fire... You put more (concious) force on the trigger almost in a desperate manner... BAM, bad fireing, you instantly know it is a bad shot. (or if it is a good shot you must go and buy a lottery ticket, this is your lucky day... :-)

Because the shooter doesn't trust his/her sight picture and get defensive and over careful. The little devil in the head says: "Don't fire now, it will be a very bad shot".

To overcome this you have to be more active and really trust your hold and your perfectly smooth trigger work. Shot should break in 3-7 seconds when you are in the sight picture - thats when you have a steady hold and a non tired eye.

This problem has very little to do with trigger weight or trigger adjustments. As a matter of fact, it can be even worse when shooting free pistol. (Extremly light trigger weigths) Because it is so easy to do a bad shot in free pistol, we get defensive and over careful.

Again, be active with the trigger and trust your hold - tens will start pouring in... :-)

One book on mental training spoke of "Green," "yellow" and "RED" lights. Green, you are in the groove, doing your thing, in the zone.

Yellow indicates you are in danger of loosing that special concentration, or prehaps have lost it but are not yet in the danger zone of a really bad problem.

Red means you probably should have stopped. RED is time to put the pistol down, sit down, clear your mind and restart the entire process. Use all of the relaxation techniques and let your mind wander where it will. Then refocus and start back to the line.

I would tend to guess that as soon as you recognize the shoot has not broken, are you in the Yellow, because you are not using your technique, your procedure. Hence one should abort, and restart. When it happpens several times that may indicate you are headed for the RED and need a little extra relaxation and refocus.

This is easier in FP and AP where you have all the tie in the world. You can not do this quite as often in bullseye, but ten rounds in ten minutes is lots of time.

Ed, why God Bless your heart---that's a confession I thought only us mortals would be able to make. Here I have been harboring this same idiosyncracy for all my old life, thinking it only happened to me. 20 grams of trigger pull and I cannot squeeze that shot off that's hanging with such a perfect sight picture, and no movement ( or so it seems), then just as the 5000# trigger finally goes click---where's the G@damned shot go off---right!!!! a 4 at one o'clock. I have often said there is a" don't shoot synapse" that prevents a shot going off, your mind is in control and will not let the trigger finger function any further---a sort of "safety" mechanism---some call it "cheeken finger." I also like the little voice that says "put the gun down....put the gun down....put the G$damn gun down. "

Ed:

Just want clarification. I am pretty sure you know what "chicken finger" and other phenomenon etc. are and I believe you are actually discussing a different phenomenon.

Is it like this:

- Within last few months your pattern of hold has changed
- You are now seeing perhaps the same *overall* level of "stability" (or maybe even a sloppier track) however
- You are seeing "pauses" in your wobble that may last 200-300 ms; or you perceive the sights to just stop moving for "some" noticeable moment
- Pauses don't always occur with perfect sight picture
- Pauses frequently occur with sights maybe a little lower than you would like or off to one side

???

Steve Swartz

Thank you again for all the helpful thoughts. I may be going through a denial period, but the above situations, although familiar, don't seem to catch my current trait. Again, some specific responses:

Hi Bob F.,

I have several visualizations during different times. The one for the shot (and once just prior to raise) has it happening with the perfect sights in the aiming area. This is what I try to hold during the shot - hopefully with a marrying of the visualization to the real-world unfolding. Other visualizations are of the hit being centered in the target, which I hold prior to shooting and after the shot happens, either before or instead of scoping. Other visualizations are away from the match and include all aspects of completing matches.

As I reread the above paragraph, I'm reminded that often the visualization of the shot (during the execution) completes without the shot firing, and I automatically replay it, sometimes several times before it fires. But, I also wonder if at other times, I am actually only playing the hold portion of the visualization without the shot break and I have successfully married the real-world to the visualization, preventing the shot from happening while I'm mentally attached to the hold image... Hmmmm...

Hi Axel,

Again, it may be my filter, but what I experience doesn't seem to be what you describe, although I have experienced that too. Instead of, per se, forcing the shot to happen, which I still do on occasion, this is more of a wait for something that will only happen after I lose the moment. IOW, there is no extra effort to make it happen, rather it is as though I have stopped concentrating on the shot and it fires. It's more like this:

Everything is unfolding with the trigger pressure increasing and the aligned sights hovering in what I call the "environment for success." The sights are clear and hovering, hovering, slight loss of clear focus - Bang!

Or, same as above to the hovering sight picture, hovering, hovering, drift left - Bang!

Or, same as above to the hovering sight picture, hovering, hovering, abort suggestion - Bang!

The above scenarios are not super common, but they are frequent enough to be annoying.

Hi Pete,

If I were to evaluate my phenomenon using the color system you describe, I would have to say that all is green when these things occur. At most, it would manifest as the recognition of yellow being the fire command that completes the shot. Although I do have those targets I shoot that just won't straighten out, what I'm wrestling with is one that happens when all else is good. It occurs anywhere from the first to the last shot on otherwise good targets, and even though I haven't been scoping at all until recently, the shots are on call well enough to recognize the resultant shot from the group.

Hi Bob R,

I'm still in denial of what you describe, but it might just be my interpretation. I'm familiar with the shots where you just have to make them happen because the ammo added extra weight to the trigger when you inserted it, but I'm perceiving this as something different. It could just be an oblique facet of the same trouble, I suppose. But, in my current case, I don't force anything, unless it is subconsciously an extra nudge because of the wane in focus. To me it seems as though the firing is post concentration lapse, but maybe it's really part of the whole. In most of these cases it isn't anything to do with the thought of aborting, although sometimes even that shift fires the shot.

Hi Steve,

- There are two movements I associate with hold. The first I'll describe as the small shake within the sights. That portion has become very minimized, but not too recently. The second movement is the slow gross drift around the aiming area, which also gives a couple excursions now and then. This has perhaps increased recently. Sometimes one of those excursions will be the prompt to complete the shot.

- Is the sloppy track what I described with the excursions?

- The sights never seem to sit stationary anywhere relative to the target, but they do stay pretty stationary relative to my vision. The pattern of hold for most part has a pretty stable sight alignment, but drifts around in the aiming area, which for open sights is currently sub-six. The dot stays well within the black mostly and very centered within the tube. I do have an occasional trigger induced left drift which I haven't totally conquered.

- I don't think I have true pauses, although there are mins and maxes to the movement, as described in the USAMU Manual, within the hold pattern.

- Doesn't sound familiar to have pauses out of the aiming area, but I might be using selective memory.

Thanks again to everyone for the discussion points. I do appreciate all the comments.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Hi,
So, you have got a trigger finger that acts on its on it self?
Is this not what we all wanted to acquire?

The finger knows how to pull the trigger so well that YOU have forgot how to pull the trigger. You do not fire any more, you give a go ahead and that’s it.

All well then, is it not? No, the finger need a challenge. Something new!
(A new pistol or grip, a change here and there does work for an hour)

Here is how I deal with it:

In air pistol and free pistol, turn off the switch or do not set the trigger, other guns, do not cock the action. Then try to fire. The finger will try, in vain of course.

Your trigger finger will be reborn again. Good luck!

Kent

Recall those 10X rapid fire BE targets you have shot? (For those reading who don’t shoot US NRA style Bullseye, this is two 5 shot strings in 10 seconds each with anything from 22 up to full power 45 military ammunition)
It was absolute chaos except for the instant of firing when somehow the sights were aligned and in the right area just at the instant when the weapon discharged. It looks completely random to me but how could that lucky jerk of the trigger happen 10 times in a row? One of the many things I visualize is the string of perfect shots that come during the chaos of recoil recovery during a good rapid-fire string. Many times I do not visualize the whole experience, just the instant of the shot. The aligned sights are seen moving in from any angle onto the aiming area and there is a flash of the perfect shot exactly like I would remember if I had just called a perfect X. I could describe it as a visualization of calling the perfect shot instead of a visualization of the shot process. I also visualize the shot process: perfectly steady sight picture with perfect alignment, the quick, smooth, unstoppable trigger pull, the first shot of several kinds of rapid fire strings, a center-fire dueling stage shot and preparing for the first shot of a match, driving to the range, loading the gun box and several other things but mostly, I visualize calling the perfect shot. I rarely visualize a slow fire shot. Perhaps I should work on that.
If you only visualize the perfect sight picture that is rock steady then that may be the problem. The subconscious is giving you what you asked for when the perfect sight alignment is observed over the center of the aiming area and the subconscious is confused by the desire to disturb the goal by pulling the trigger. Enormous effort is required to frantically over-ride the subconscious before it is too late, therefore the trigger weight is felt in tons instead of pounds with the typical disturbance of the alignments and confusion about what went wrong. Sorry about the length of this post but it would not do to simply say:
Visualize calling the perfect shot. There is nothing wrong with your shot process.
Bob Fleming

Hi Kent,

Interesting thoughts. I have tried the suggestions you made, although not recently. I used to use the uncocked mode to study the sway of the pistol as I exerted and released pressure.

Hi Bob F,

It sounds like you were there to witness one of my my Indoor 50 foot Rapid Fire 10x targets. It was exactly as you described. I started late and was just trying to make the time, while being distracted by another shooter having gun troubles. I never expected it to be 100, let alone 10x...

I'm going to have to observe this more and come back with some more details. Unfortunately, it almost sounds like I'm moving into the mode I don't like to approach - studying errors.

Perhaps I'll go back into the mode of looking for the correct operation, while keeping an open mind to studying each shot as it unfolds, and just gather some more data.

I think I will rework my visualization some though...

Thanks again to all for the comments.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Hi Ed!
Great scores at Perry considering the fallen state of your comfort zone!

Bob

Ya Ed way to go Hoo-mahn [/Ferengi voice]

Been thinking agout inhibitions. Sunday as you were packing up from Perry I was training consciously in OR. Something happened that has happened only a few times over the 36 years I have been shooting pistol. I actually did have a temporarily empty mind. No inhibitions. Like a few times before I took a "just do it" approach to the last string of my session. I had 5 rounds of my 50yd wad ammo left and aw heck I'll just fire these off at the 50 but in TF fashion just for the fun of it. There were already 20 shots on the target, a few tens, nines eights and a 7 even. I had them pretty well spotted and recognized. Anyway the "TF" string went off real well. At first I didn't even look at the target, but began packing up. When I got to my scope, I looked and the target appeared the same as before only the tenring was now nearly gone.

Conclusion: Turning off inhibitions is the key to doing the fundamental stuff right for a change. Turning off inhibitions consciously is a difficult concept. And annoying.

Jack H

Steve and Ed
I would answer this for you but with my 230 10 METER pistol average and all the stuff goin" on in my freakin' head you really don't want to hear it.
Just relax and FORGETABOUTIT!
Have a nice day!

Hey Ed, Thought I might find you here.....


I've been thinking about this since you brought it up in our discussion at Perry.
Although I don't have any revelations for a possible answer, don't be afraid to CONSIDER errors in your quest for perfection. Didn't Edison try several hundred versions of the light bulb before he got it right? (and over the course of at LEAST a year...if I remember ANYTHING from school).
I know one is not supposed to get caught up in the negative thought, and also how easy it is to fall into the traps of thinking negativley. But, especially with a person who enjoys a high degree of intelligence, one can educate themselves on what to avoid. After all, isn't the intent of "avoiding negative thoughts" more about not dwelling on them, or not using negative reinforcement rather than positive reinforcement during shooting?
It should still be acceptable to "discover" the impetus of the problem to ascertain the solution. When you have the solution at hand, make sure the remedy is in the form of a POSITIVE statement (i.e saying "I shoot many tens" as opposed to "I hope I don't shoot a 7")
Just because you consider what it may be that you are doing incorrectly, by default that does not infer that you will always think about the "incorrect" thing to avoid. You could discover the error, and develop a resolution to the error using the "positive" antithesis of what occured to create the error.
Besides, I too have experienced this phenomena, and I am curious as to your theory regarding the solution. So far, I have been stuck on the "visualization stopping at the point of perfect sight alignment" theory, but I liked the post regarding dry firing without a cocked hammer too.

Open to your comments (and I promise not to allow my skin to be too thin!)

Brad Lightner

(Sorry I am sooooo long winded guys....learn to skip over BULLSEYEGUY when you see him posting!)



BTW.... good shooting this year Ed!

WHAT! IN ENGLISH PLEASE!