TargetTalk

Personally , I think an LP10 with an electronic trigger would be a dream come true . Not that I'm complaining about the existing trigger . What say you pundits ?

Chris

However mertiorious the concept, might that not be perceived in some circles as "Giving In To The Competition" hence shunned by corporate big wheels?

The marketing types rely on concepts like "brand identification" and "image" to sell products (so they are taught). By adopting a product characterstic identified with a competitor's product, Steyr would be "watering down" their brand identification.

Yes, I know that this is patently BS in this case, but that's what B-Schoolers are taught in marketing class . . .

Steve Swartz

(Steyr adopting an electronic trigger would be analogous to IBM adopting the MAC OS. Sort of.)

they realize that an electronic trigger really does not make you shoot any better than with a mechanical one, so why waste time with it...

Mike Douglass

Well, Mike Douglass... I do.

I beleve that the ultimate AP would be a Steyr LP10 with a Morini electronic trigger. But thats probably not going to happen... :-(

Steve Swartz wrote:However mertiorious the concept, might that not be perceived in some circles as "Giving In To The Competition" hence shunned by corporate big wheels?

The marketing types rely on concepts like "brand identification" and "image" to sell products (so they are taught). By adopting a product characterstic identified with a competitor's product, Steyr would be "watering down" their brand identification.

Yes, I know that this is patently BS in this case, but that's what B-Schoolers are taught in marketing class . . .

Steve Swartz

(Steyr adopting an electronic trigger would be analogous to IBM adopting the MAC OS. Sort of.)

Steve,
You are confusing mass/consumer marketing with industrial marketing. I believe that high end air guns and firearms are similar to industrial products and are sold to users who behave more like industrial buyers than mass market consumer buyers. Serious shooters and competitors buy a product after a thorough study of product performance in the intended use, much like any industrial buyer/purchasing agent. Concepts like 'brand identification' and 'brand image' play a much smaller role in industrial marketing and in the buyer decision making process than they do in mass markets. A good, well known 'brand image' will get the buyer's attention, but not the sale unless the product has the required performance characteristics.

It's unfortuneate that your business school marketing class did not spend more time on industrial marketing. I know mine did not and I had to learn it by doing it.

And I don't care for the innuendo that "The marketing types rely on concepts like "brand identification" and "image" to sell products" is somehow underhanded or unethical.

Regards,

Fred

Jeeze Fred just what part of " . . . The marketing types rely on concepts like "brand identification" and "image" to sell products (so they are taught) . . ." did you find to be offensive?

To create value, you have form utility (operations management), time and place utility (logistics) and possession utility (marketing). Possession utility is created in the minds of consumers by creating a desire for your product; the desire gives it value above and beyond actual form or time & place.

Nothing inherently "underhanded" or "unethical" (*your* words, not mine) about it. Odd that you seem somewhat "spring loaded" here! Yes, some may consider "possession utility" to be akin to "vapor ware" but it is what it is. Desire raises value.

Take it up with the textbook writers and the gurus who came up with the theories if you don't like it, not me. Is it not a statement of fact that brand identification and image are taught as key principles in marketing; particularly as a key element of product(s) differentiation?

OBTW, you are right about one thing- industrial buying/purchasing and marketing is not covered well in many business programs. I am teaching a class in "B2B Marketing" in the Spring semester to the doctoral students here. You are right- many (most?) marketing departments do *not* teach "industrial buying" (B2B marketing) at the undergraduate or MBA levels.

And not every program even does it at the PhD level either, as I found out in developing the coursework.

Anyhow

I'm not sure many of us have a Strategic Sourcing department to evaluate the costs and benefits of a given air pistol to assist us in making a truly informed decision.

I have yet to see anyone else use a weighted-criteria decision matrix in selecting the best air pistol for them. I'm not saying nobody does (I did)- just that I've never met anyone else who did . . .

Steve

Well I think Steyr may well bring an alectronic trigger as that appears to be the way to go. There are pros and cons with electronics but IMO the pros outweigh them. That said it doesn't matter whether they are technically better or not, if people will buy them. How many manual morini 162's are there compared to electronics for example ?

Rob.

Steve,

Yes, I admit to being somewhat 'springloaded' on the subject. :-)

"B2B Marketing" = "Business to Business Marketing"?
Sounds like a great course. Suggestion - try to find a few PA's and salespeople to give a guest lecture or two on how the theories work in practice.

Regards,
Fred

RobStubbs wrote:How many manual morini 162's are there compared to electronics for example ?

Rob.

Rob,

That's an excellent point. I've never shot the mechanical 162, but I've heard others say it has an excellent trigger. So, if everything is the same between it and the electronic version, why does the electronic version seem to sell so much better than it does?

Here's another point. How many national and/or world class competitors have changed from the Steyr AP to a Morini AP (probably electronic)? Of those, how many have opted to go back to the Steyr?

And on a related note, how many national and/or world class FP shooters have gone to the Morini FP from a Toz, Steyr or Pardini? Of those, how many have opted to drop the Morini and go back to something mechanical?

For me, the only real advantage the Steyr AP has is the grip angle adjustability. If the Morini electronic AP had that capability, it would be darned near perfect.

Stan

IP Shooter , the Styer LP10 has better firing impulse dampening ( I hate to use the term recoil ) . Personally , I own a Styer and a Morini ( electronic of course ) - I am hardput to say which I prefer . I find that I have started to produce almost equal scores , now that I have started to give them equal time in practice .

Chris

Steve Swartz wrote:However mertiorious the concept, might that not be perceived in some circles as "Giving In To The Competition" hence shunned by corporate big wheels?

The marketing types rely on concepts like "brand identification" and "image" to sell products (so they are taught). By adopting a product characterstic identified with a competitor's product, Steyr would be "watering down" their brand identification.

Yes, I know that this is patently BS in this case, but that's what B-Schoolers are taught in marketing class . . .

Steve Swartz

(Steyr adopting an electronic trigger would be analogous to IBM adopting the MAC OS. Sort of.)

Or Microsoft adopting the graphical user interface like Apple, oh ya but that happened.

Your thought would ring true if Morini was the only one to ever have had an electronic trigger but there have been many before and there will be many in the future most likely.

Precisely.

That's why I used the MAC OS example in the first place . . .

Steve

(and yes Fred I have some industrial buyers *and* manufacturer's reps on hand. Plus we are going to talk alout about value-added intermediaries like Grainger etc. There is more to an effective supply chain than having a great Plan-O-Gram.)

Steve Swartz wrote:Precisely.

That's why I used the MAC OS example in the first place . . .

Steve

(and yes Fred I have some industrial buyers *and* manufacturer's reps on hand. Plus we are going to talk alout about value-added intermediaries like Grainger etc. There is more to an effective supply chain than having a great Plan-O-Gram.)

"Precisely" what do you mean by that? The adoption didn't hurt Microsoft sales, and it didn't help Apple sales. So it doesn't do anything to prove your point.

A while ago there was some talk of a Pardini electronic AP.
Any more news on that?

Richard:

1) Mac OS superior to DOS; Elect Trigger superior to Mech

2) DOS in greater # hands; Mech in greater #hands

3) IBM adopt Mac OS reluctantly; Steyr adopt Elect reluctantly- why?

1. Adoption necessary due to superiority of other product
2. Adoption bad because admission of inferior product

therefore

Steyr adopting electronic trigger would be 'somewhat' equivalent to IBM adopting Mac OS. Note that this never actually happened- it took a third party (indifferent to admission of inferiority of DOS) to clone the look and feel of Mac OS over DOS (OS now known as "Windows").

Perhpas we need a Bill Gates to aftermarket-modify Steyrs with Morini electronic triggers?

Steve Swartz

Steve Swartz wrote:Richard:

1) Mac OS superior to DOS; Elect Trigger superior to Mech

2) DOS in greater # hands; Mech in greater #hands

3) IBM adopt Mac OS reluctantly; Steyr adopt Elect reluctantly- why?

1. Adoption necessary due to superiority of other product
2. Adoption bad because admission of inferior product

therefore

Steyr adopting electronic trigger would be 'somewhat' equivalent to IBM adopting Mac OS. Note that this never actually happened- it took a third party (indifferent to admission of inferiority of DOS) to clone the look and feel of Mac OS over DOS (OS now known as "Windows").

Perhpas we need a Bill Gates to aftermarket-modify Steyrs with Morini electronic triggers?

Steve Swartz

If you read my post I said they adopted a GUI not the MAC OS. It was Microsoft who adopted it ( in the form of Windows) not IBM. Yes I know that Windows is the OS for the IBM and IBM clone systems, but that still does not make your statements any truer.

I do not beleive that Steyr will adopt a Morini electric trigger either, I'm sure they will come up with their own. "Better", better is in the eye of the beholder, would they get people who already have a mechanical Steyr to fork out another couple grand for an electronic one, probably, and that might just be the marketing reason there. Shooting community is small, Steyr and Morini have basically saturated the market, sales will get tougher so you have to invent obsolescence. Being the great business mind I thought you would have thought of this. It's no different than the CA/CO2 change, CO2 guns are preceived as being oboslete and inferior to CA guns (This is totally untrue) and it got shooters to go out and replace their guns. Steyr moving to an electronic trigger would do the same for their sales (as long as it was of quality design and construction). Morini would have a harder time to increase sales by obsolescence, the best thing they could probably do is come up with dampening mechanisms, barrel porting and grip adjustments.

Obsolesence is a big marketing ploy in just about everything we buy so I really don't understand why you don't think it would be valid in guns too.

I feel like I opened a can of worms , not my intention . Many shooters I have talked to seem very interested in an lp10 with an electronic trigger , and think it would be the best of both worlds .

Chris

I just HAVE to butt in. I have enjoyed so much of all your advice and my rookie opinions may not hold a whole lot of water BUT I say we just ask Steyr. I am certain they will tell us if it's in their future to have an LP-10ET (electronic trigger) (that's sarcasm...) Anyhow, i have only fired electronic rifles such as the Daystate MK3/Airwolf. I like the fact that there are no springs to deal with. Adjustments can be made via simple clicks (not mouse clicks though hehehe) and the result is a pretty darn nice trigger. I'd like to hear more about the Morini electronic trigger on this thread. I would guess that there would be less recoil/muzzle flip w/ an electronic trigger. I know that when i dry fire my non-electroni target rifle, there is slight movement due to the spring decompressing. The electronic rifle does not have a spring to decompress, hence, one less item to add motion. Just my .02.

Cheng

The type of trigger has no effect on firing impulse ( I hesitate to call it recoil ) . It does effect front sight movements caused by less than perfect operator technique . Impulses caused by trigger manipulation cause front sight movement . Most shooters describe the LP10 trigger as "good ", and the Morini electronic as "Sweet !" , the older LP1 has one of the better mechasnical triggers .

As you start to close in on the elusive 10 ring , you start to clutch at straws in an effort to enhance your performance . All this is kinda like arguing the merits of 18 vs. 24 year old Scotch whiskey . That said , even relative noobies perform better with a "Sweet " trigger .

Chris