TargetTalk

Some advice from some experienced pistol users would be appreciated. I'm ready to purchase a steyr. The only reason I am deliberating on the LP 10 or the LP 50, is that my understanding is the LP 50 can be used for the 10m standard single shot events given one uses a single shot magazine. Does that mean that basically, both pistols are the same other than the LP 50 is also able to be used for RF as it has an alternative 5 shot magazine. I've never experienced RF - not even seen an event - but thought that since both pistols are priced pretty much the same - and I'd predict that I would be using it for years to come - why not buy one that can do both events. However - my first and foremost aim as a beginner is to learn how to shoot properly in the standard 10m AP event. RF is a consideration for "later" - if that is a way to put it.
I can say - that the reason I purchased the rohm twinmaster top was for the same reason [single magazine and 8 shot magazine] but have found the trigger adjustment for this pistol very disappointing - as the trigger tries to cater for two different disciplines. Would that be the case with the Steyrs too? Do I select a pistol [LP-10]specifically designed for the event I am pursuing - or would I find the LP - 50 virtually identical to it - and able to be used in RF at a later stage? Hit me with some good advice - please.

Yes, very different triggers. LP10 trigger is much better suited for single shot, more crisp and exact. However, with some skillful modifications, the LP5/50 trigger can be ok even for single shot. But if you are going to shoot single shot events, get an LP10 or any other top air pistol, IMHO.

John,
I went thru the same thought process you did and purchased an LP50. It is a fine gun and I like it. But after shooting a friend's LP1, I found that I really preferred that trigger. It also fit my short fingered hand better. So I now own both an LP50 and an LP1 :-)

fred

My entry into AP was the same as Fred's. Started out by buying an LP50 and shot some very respectable scores with it.

When I got really serious about AP, I started checking out the single shots made by Steyr and Morini. I couldnt believe the difference in triggers. The Steyr LP50 has a good trigger but it's no match for the Steyr LP series and the Morini.

I now have both the LP50 and and the Morini electronic.

Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with using the LP50 for the 60 shot AP events. My guess is that if you really get into AP shooting, you'll end up with both a single shot and a repeater.


Good luck with your choice

F. Paul in Denver

Obviously, they must be out there, but I've yet to see a club that was running rapid fire air pistol matches. Every club where I've shot air, it's always been the standard slow fire event. Maybe they figure there aren't enough people around with RF airguns to have a RF match.

Also, if you also shoot cartridge guns, the really big deal about getting an air pistol is the help it'll give you in improving your slow fire technique. Airguns don't recoil when you fire them, so if the gun moves, that's you, not the gun, making it much easier to diagnose what's going on with your trigger squeeze and follow-through. In timed and rapid BE strings, I find it's more about not rushing my shots before I've regained my sight alignment and sight picture after the gun has recoiled, so I'm not sure how much a 5-shot AP would help me on that. (Otoh, not having tried it, maybe I'm missing something.)

Bottom line is that I'd get the LP10P, not the LP50, to optimize both for the events you're actually far more likely to encounter and for the training exercise for which an AP is most helpful.

In theory the LP50 will be less accurate as there is a gap and a jump from magazine to chamber.
The trigger is also a compromise compared with the LP10.

So for dedicated single shot shooting the LP10 is better, the LP50 is a good all-rounder.

Don't buy a White Elephant. Buy the LP10 (or a Morini Electronic)!!!

Anonymous wrote:Don't buy a White Elephant. Buy the LP10 (or a Morini Electronic)!!!

White elephant???

I have both the LP10 is purpose built for single shot match and is excellent (the trigger is better on the LP1). That being said I really don't think you would lose that much by shooting the single shot match with the LP 50. I also am sure that should you go the 50 route first and decide later to switch to the single shot you'll have no problem selling it.

I have a LP5 and used to also have the Morini EI Short. Yes, the trigger on the Morini is fantastic and much better than the LP5. That being said, the LP5's trigger is still good. In the end, I found that I couldn't shoot any better scores with the Morini. I didn't like the idea of having over 2 grand tied up in two air pistols when I can only shoot one at a time. Since the LP5 is more versatile I decided to keep that one.

As far as using the LP5 for sustained fire training, it's much harder to shoot good timed or rapid fire scores with it than one might think. IMHO, even without the recoil, it's still about sight alignment and trigger control.

Unfortunately, there aren't any rapid fire air pistol matches around. I run air pistol matches and I'm ever ready to hold a rapid fire event if anyone would care to join me. I think a rapid fire event on the biathlon style targets would be the berrys, and I'm willing to hold onto my LP5 until I get the chance to find out!

Lee

You guys (and gals) should come over to the UK, we have stacks of competitions with 5 shot AP's. Only downside is that's all we're allowed their real bigger brothers :(

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote:You guys (and gals) should come over to the UK, we have stacks of competitions with 5 shot AP's. Only downside is that's all we're allowed their real bigger brothers :(

Hadn't thought about 'till you mentioned it, but the fact that we can own cartridge guns in the US and you can't is probably precisely the reason you see lots of 5-shot APs in the UK and almost none here.

Nicole Hamilton wrote: Hadn't thought about 'till you mentioned it, but the fact that we can own cartridge guns in the US and you can't is probably precisely the reason you see lots of 5-shot APs in the UK and almost none here.

Yep I think there'd be far, far fewer 5-shot AP's - in fact I'd guess the situation would mirror your own pretty closely.

Rob.

The LP50 is anything but a white elephant , it is a fun plinker , shoots extremley well - both in rapid and single fire . Steyer quality is rather addictive , if you get an LP50 , you will likley gety an LP10 . If you like a little roll in the trigger , the LP50 trigger is just fine . Any differences in accuracy will probably not be apparent to anyone who shoots below 550-560 .

It was my first high end AP , and got me started on this addiction .

Chris

There's some terrific feedback amongst all the posts. Many thanks to all who have put much thought into your replys. I'm leaning towards the LP 10 now - especially with the fact that rapid fire events are few and far between. The only confusion is probably the repetative mention of how good the morini is - a pistol I've never considered......until now!!??

I have 2 Steyrs a LP10 and LP5. The Steyr and Morini are the top two air pistols. The Morini with the electronic trigger has probably the best trigger available. But the trigger isn't the whole story, I tried both and the Steyr fit me and felt better.

Due to the electronics you can't adjust the Morini as much as the Steyr, if you don't need adjustment it doesn't matter, others I'm sure will chime in that you can make the same adjustment by modifying the grip. It is true you can modify the grip but it takes much more talent and skill to adjust the pistol by modifying the grip as opposed to adjusting a couple of screws.

The best thing you can do is try both pistols if at all possible, even if you have to drive a little ways its worth it.

Hi,

I started shooting 10m air pistol last November... I was looking for a new hobby (something for myself), and I had shot competitive prone rifle as a teenager (I'm better than 40 now ;-). I purchased an LP10 here in Ottawa, and then joined the local gun club (The R.A. Centre).

I tried the Morini 162 EI (dry fired for 15 minutes). I thought the trigger was great, but I thought that the variety of adjustments and recoil control of the LP10 would be more important in the long run. I made the decision myself, based on dry firing both, and on my online "research".

I think the decision might have been premature..

I picked up a Morini 162 EI Short at the Grand Prix in Toronto (after 5 months with the LP10) and I was immediately happier with the balance and the trigger.

/* Begin Inappropriate Tournament Behavior */
I shot the Morini, for the first time on my second relay on Sunday. Without ever having put a pellet through it. I probably dry fired it for an hour or more the night before.

I shot 13 points better, and won the silver in my class.

/* End Inappropriate Tournament Behavior */ .. but I reserve the right to do silly things again :-)

Please Note. My input is from the point-of-view of an inexperienced shooter not on a budget.... I'm inexperienced, both in pistol shooting and especially in trigger/grip adjustment. And... I probably would have shot 13 points (or more) better the second day with the LP10 anyway.

The Lp10 is an EXCELLENT air pistol. I haven't sold it, and I hope to attain the kind of control that will let it shine someday. But I think the Morini (162 EI Short) would have been a better choice (for me) initially.

Frankly.. I'm happy that the only position adjustment I can make to the trigger is forward and back. I tried adjusting the LP10 trigger (changing the angle and cant.. etc) and I think it was way too soon. I was always adjusting something.. assuming it would make for better scores. But in the end the Morini trigger surprises me more, and I think it is making me concentrate on my sight picture and trigger control more.

So ...

Right now.. I'm happy with the Morini.. and I plan on using it for at least the next 6 months.

Best of luck, and please note that my opinions are fully worth at least 2 cents!!!

Cheers,

David

Dave glad to hear you won silver. What you are describing could also be do to the Hawthorn effect. Which is change in and of it self can provide increases in productivity or improvement (for a limited time). Have you ever stopped practicing for a month or more than came back and shot a PB, but after that even with practicing your scores level off to where they were prior to your layoff. If on the other hand you continue to shoot higher scores because of the change, then you probably did have an equipment issue. One of the problems I see in new shooters is that they do spend a lot of time fiddling with adjustments without allowing enough time to see if the adjustment has made any difference either positive or negative. They also adjust so many things and don't keep track so they really have no clue as to what and what doesn't work.

Like I said earlier both pistols are great and the only real way to tell is to shoot each. If you can't do that then you just have to take a leap of faith (don't worry about it either will do you well) and buy the one you like best. The other good thing is that the top quality AP's hold there value pretty well and if later you change your mind and decide to go with the other pistol you would probably only loose a couple hundred dollars or so.

Richard H wrote:What you are describing cold also be do to the Hawthorn effect. Which is change in and of it self can provide increases in productivity or improvement (for a limited time).

That story of the factory workers being studied didn't spring to mind for me 'till you mentioned it. But it's a classic reminder not to jump to conclusions about improvements shortly after any change in conditions.

I also would be skeptical of the significance of one PB on a brand-new gun. If you're in any sort of rut, consistently making some particular mistake (especially if you're not aware of it), a new gun is perhaps all it would take to break you out of it, at least temporarily. For example, if you're not real familiar with the trigger, then every squeeze is going to be a lot more of a surprise release. So if you've been jerking the trigger on your usual gun, maybe you won't on this one.

Re: the choice between a Steyr and a Morini, I very much agree with your advice to try them both, even if doing that means you have to drive a ways. Making a choice isn't about deciding which gun is best, it's about deciding which gun is best for you. It's worth thinking about what it is you like in a gun. For example, in my case, I have mechanical roll triggers with a tiny bit of creep on the second stage before the release on my Pardini standard pistols and on my Steyr LP10 and I've decided I really like that. So when I wanted to buy a free pistol, I deliberately chose one that also had a mechanical roll trigger, even though lots of folks insist almost as a matter of religion that the Morini electronic trigger is always best. Well, maybe it's best for them. I expected it might be too crisp for my taste. And that's really all it's about, just personal taste.

I have also had a hell of a time deciding what pistol I prefer . I have had some terrific performance out of both my Morini and my Styer . A wise English fella told me it's good to have two pistols , that way when you plateau with one you can have an adulterous diversion with the other .

Chris

Not off topic I guess but a minor correction about the Hawthorne (General Electric) studies.

Actually, the Hawthorne study showed that "some employees performed better when changes were made- directly due to the awareness that management was watching them closely, and not due to the change in conditions" (part A). Most students are taught the first part of that finding but not the second.

Part B of the study showed that "some employees performed WORSE when changes were made- directly due to the awareness that management was watching them closely, and not due to the change in conditions."

[Interesting side note: Part A subjects were non-union, piece rate women doing small motor windings in a large group environment; PArt B were unionized men doing alrge motor windings paid hourly in a small work setting. Hmmmmm . . . ]

As is the case frequently, the actual findings of actual research is much more subtle (and interesting!) than the "MBA Version" that the vast majority of folks are exposed to.

In any case, it's a minor nit to pick, but the "Hawthorne Effect" might not apply to the use of a new/unfamiliar gun quite the way most people would think. Yes, "New/Different Gun" effect might exist (lots of anecdotal, self-fulfilling type observation) but it's not due to the Hawthorne Effect IMNSHO.

Not to be offensive about it, but I teach this stuff for a living and I think it is important to get it right.

Steve Swartz