TargetTalk

just out of curiosity... can you shoot colibris or subsonic ammo for practice? are all subsonics primer fired?

Beware of that ammo where the driving power is produced by the primer mass alone. There might be a danger, that the projectile is stuck in the long FP barrel and thus cause damage. I don't know if there is any benefit to use subsonic ammo in FPs. Just get standard velocity target/match ammo, and you should be satisfied. Selection of brand is yours. There are plenty of cartridges having subsonic Vo, but their bullets are driven by burning powder gases.

If you recognize a need for competition with FP, then consider 3 top European ammo brands.

I have tried Jagd Green Dot (LV), Eley Target Pistol Match, Eley Ten-X, CCI Blue, etc. and have settled on RWS Target Rifle---which seems to relatively inexpensive in comparison. I have the best grouping with it on the Hammerli 160 Special, and TOZ (tight chamber) eats it up nicely as well. I don't think you ought to try those primer only rounds, you may be getting more trouble than you wish with squibs in those barrels---if you don't pick that up right away and load the barrel---kiss that gun good bye. Remember these guns are designed to be shot at 50 metres and though the TOZ is built to lay barbed wired during the week and shoot FP on the weekends, it isn't going to like that either. IMHO

FWIW, the instruction sheet that Don Nygord shipped with my Toz-35 recommended a mid-grade ammo like RWS Target. If I had to bet, the error budget is so strongly dominated by the shooter that there is only a point or two to be gained by using the gild-edged ammo instead of the Pretty Good Stuff. And I seem to recollect that after Bill Demarest set the world record in FP, they benched his gun and ammo. The ammo shot lousy.

I have tried the Aguila subsonic including Super Colibri in my Morini FP and found them to be wholly unsuited to the task, even for indoor training. Their grouping is spectacularly poor, and the Super Colibri was actually keyholing through the target on our indoor 20yard range. They ARE incredibly quiet, but also very, very dirty to shoot.

I guess I would question why anybody would want to shoot subsonic ammo for training. I shoot fairly hot ammo for training right now (PMC Scoremaster) because it's cheap, and then switch to some old Tenex for matches. The point of impact and recoil characteristics of these two types of ammo are about the same, with only a 5 times factor difference in price.

If you're concerned about making noise and bothering other people in the area where you train, I would suggest the Aguila subsonics are quiet enough to reduce those concerns. But as a training tool they are virtually useless. If noise is of that great a concern you would likely stand to gain far more by training with an air pistol than the primer-fired subsonic ammo.

And to answer your last question, not all subsonic ammo is primer-fired. Remington SubSonic is powder-driven, and is not very subsonic. Most match-grade .22 ammo is very close to being subsonic. And when fired from pistols, most of the match grade ammo (like the Eley and Lapua stuff) is subsonic by the time it gets part way down the range. Having fired Remington SubSonic side-by-side with other ammo in my free pistol, I can't think of any good reason why one would want to dilute the value of one's training time by using subsonic ammunition. The generally poorer grouping and higher rate of misfires in the cheaper subsonic stuff doesn't really endear it to me at all.

RWS Target Rifle is what I shoot in my TOZ. The gun/ammo shoots alot better than i can, It will group within the 10 ring, so thats good enough for me. The best part about the RWS Target Rifle is its some of the cheaper ammo that I've found.

Just a quick note to give some idea of comparison with respect to ammo performance. Aguila subsonic ammo was producing groups of 8-12 inches when hand-fired at 20 yards. This compares with normal grouping in the 1-2" range with other ammo. After seeing these groups I decided right away this subsonic ammo was NOT well suited to my training needs.

At 50m from a Ransom rest, most ammo will shoot inside the 10-ring (50mm). These brands would include Remington Target, Winchester T22, Eley Target Pistol and Match Pistol, Lapua Standard Club, Super Club and Pistol King, as well as Master (sorry, I'm not rich enough to by Midas!). Of note, the Remington Target produced some extraordinarily good groups, but also some groups that had very nasty fliers. Consistance was not what one would hope for. Some of the best groups I got with my Morini were produced by my "favourite" lot of old Eley Tenex and Aguila Match Pistol. These were less than 20mm, or well within the X-ring. Both the Aguila and Tenex produced very small central clusters, normally in the 12-13mm range, with one or two shots that opened things up to 18-20mm. The difference between ammo that this pistol likes and ammo that it doesn't like is pretty easy to see when you look at the targets.

Thanks everyone,
lots of great feedback, I really appreciate it. How about this... Are all pistols created equal? what I mean is do all toz 35's like the same ammo,Morrini's? hammerlis? if your Hammerli 150 likes rws, does that mean most likely mine will too?

Mark,

Without access to a ransom rest would one get realistic results from fixing the barrel in a vice using blocks and testing at 50m? I'd like to see just how well the various brands of ammo I currently am holding can group under close to ideal conditions.
Also, were any of your tests done comparing different lots of the same ammunition? If so did you find much variation?

Mark Briggs wrote:Most match-grade .22 ammo is very close to being subsonic. And when fired from pistols, most of the match grade ammo (like the Eley and Lapua stuff) is subsonic by the time it gets part way down the range.

It is so uncharacteristic of Mark to post incorrect information, that it has taken me several days to recover enough from my shock to be able to post a correction. I am still shaking my head in disbelief - Mark, tell me it ain't so!

"Subsonic" means "below the speed of sound." The velocity of sound in air is 1087.1 fps @STP. The velocity of nearly all match grade .22 ammo is well below that speed, at the muzzle, out of nearly all pistol barrels, even the longer barrels of free pistols. Muzzle velocity of match grade .22 ammo, out of pistol barrels, usually runs in the 850 to 975 fps range.

When most ammo transitions from sonic to subsonic speed, a certain amount of disturbance occurs in flight. Therefore it would be highly undesirable for match ammo to behave the way Mark describes. In addition, sonic .22 ammo has a telltale loud "crack" sound which, of course, is not heard at .22 pistol matches.

There are several distinct groups of subsonic .22 ammo, and it is quite misleading to lump them all together. Just off the top of my head, there are the following:
- standard velocity, which can be "match grade", as described above,
- ammo labeled "subsonic", usually very slightly lower velocity than standard velocity, often with a hollow-point bullet for hunting (no telltale "crack" to scare game),
- CB, lower velocity still, usually with lighter bullet (in 29 grain range rather than normal 40 grain), but still powder propelled,
- colibri, made by Aguila, very low velocity, light bullet, primer powered with no powder,
- other very low velocity "parlor" type ammo, seen mostly in Europe, mostly primer powered.
In addition, there is a new category being developed for the new rapid fire match requirements, which will be at the very low end of the standard velocity range.

That is probably more than anyone wanted to know about this topic. If I have stated anything incorrectly or missed any obvious categories, I would welcome correction/addition.

FredB

Fred - IT AIN'T SO! *grin*

Your point is well made and well taken. I will offer a slightly countering opinion in that I indicated most good target grade ammo is close to being subsonic. Close, but some of it can go supersonic. I have shot some Lapua across the chronograph and found it to be very close to the trans-sonic speed range (results ranged from 1083-1097 fps if I recall correctly). I didn't normalize my results to standard atmosphere and I have no way of calibrating my chronograph. But the results were close enough to the speed of sound that I realized all target ammo is not equal, and there's no guarantee that it will be subsonic.

I hope now you'll see the reasoning behind my use of "weasel words" like "most" "very close" as I have seen results which do not allow me to catagorically state that all target ammo when fired in free pistols will be subsonic.

The practical reality is just as you've pointed out - most good target ammo is designed to exit the barrel at a velocity below the speed of sound, thus avoiding the stability-reducing trans-sonic speed range whilst in flight.

The other reality remains true as we've both stated. Ammo that's intentionally labelled "subsonic" is usually slower than match grade ammo, and not necessarily designed for target shooting use.

If you wish to use "subsonic" labelled ammo to train, you have my best wishes for your patience and perserverance. On the other hand, if you wish to use it to shoot nasty rodents in the back yard, you might want to try an airgun instead. I'm not a competitive air rifle shooter by any stretch of the imagination, but my trusty Walther LGR has gone 13 red squirrels for 14 shots. Not a bad average... ;-)

There was also a question asked about shooting from a vise. The answer on that one may be found in several other posts on this forum - posts made by those who are far better informed than I. I clearly recall one post which described ammo testing being done at a manufacturers facility, using a vise mounted to a huge concrete pedestal. Obviously this technique can work if you can achieve sufficient stability in the vise mounting. When I was working with the Ransom rest the barrel of the FP was mounted in the rest as I couldn't (or wouldn't) take the time to make a set of custom pads for the Morini. As such the results aren't perfect, but are reasonably good and repeatable.

There was also a question concerning lot numbers of any given brand of ammo. I've only tested a few different lots of a couple of brands of ammo, and have indeed found a difference from one lot to another. The most notable was Eley Target Pistol which is what is commonly used in our area as training ammo. The difference between two batches tested on the same day using the same setup was measureable - I believe it was about 15mm difference in extreme outside group dimensions on 30-shot groups. But both groups fit inside the 10-ring quite handily.

Now if only I could make that happen when I shoot freehand... LoL

From a sandbag rest my TOZ-35M could not distinguish performance of Aguilla SE Std. velocity, Wolf Match Target, SKJagd Rifle Match, or SKJagd Pistol Match.

Ive been shooting this ammo for some time now and it groups as well as most of the higher end stuff. It performs well in my Suhl 150 and my IZY 35M. The Aguila SE 40 grain solids are a subsonic ammo with the Eley primer. I usually stock up at the gunshows and when you buy in lots of 5000 rounds you can get it for a little over 10 bucks a brick. A winner in all departments with me.
By the way if you check the box you will discover that most if not all of the PMC 22 rounds are rebranded Aguila, made for them in Mexico.