TargetTalk

Hello, I've got a question that's probably been asked about ten thousand times before, but couldn't really find an answer for.

Are there any websites that have done side-by-side comparisons of the pistols offered by the various manufacturers? I'd like to pick up a new target .22 for shooting both NRA and International style pistol events.

The only design that I really have any serious hands-on experience with is the Walther GSP. My biggest gripe is that it doesn't hold the bolt open after the last shot. Is this a standard thing for all of the serious target pistols, or just the GSP?

If you were to go through the purchase process for one of these pistols again, what would you do differently? What would you look for in form, fit, function, etc?

Thanks!

Justin wrote:The only design that I really have any serious hands-on experience with is the Walther GSP. My biggest gripe is that it doesn't hold the bolt open after the last shot. Is this a standard thing for all of the serious target pistols, or just the GSP?

It's pretty standard. You want all shots to feel the same, or as close as possible.

The early GSPs did have a last shot hold open, an extended magazine follower button simply pushed the hold open lever up.

I am not aware of any serious target pistol that holds the bolt open after the last shot.

I own a number of Pardinis, and they have all been very good. Sure they are not perfect, but most of the problems I've encountered can be fixed easily enough.

But if you are use to the GSP, then you'd better try some of these other pistols before buying one, because the rake angle on most of them are different from the GSP. Most of them have relaxed angles, where as the GSP is very up right.

Justin wrote: [snip]
The only design that I really have any serious hands-on experience with is the Walther GSP. My biggest gripe is that it doesn't hold the bolt open after the last shot. Is this a standard thing for all of the serious target pistols, or just the GSP?

If you were to go through the purchase process for one of these pistols again, what would you do differently? What would you look for in form, fit, function, etc?

Thanks!

It sounds like I may need to give up my preference for a bolt hold-open device and simply learn how to count to five...

Anyway, while the bulk of my Eurogun experience is with the GSP, I'm certainly open to looking at the other designs. My mind is by no means made up. In fact, I'm just getting started. I've been shooting with a SW Mod. 46 for a few years now, and have started to wonder if its time to upgrade.

_trinity_ wrote:I am not aware of any serious target pistol that holds the bolt open after the last shot.

The current Feinwerkbau AW93 does (the very first production run did not).

The MG-2 does not hold open after the last shot, and I believe the CM-22 from Morini does not either.

BTW, there's a reason for this... A theory exists that, because the bolt doesn't slam closed after the last shot in pistols with a last shot hold-open device the pistol feels different and effects follow-through on the last shot. I have to agree with this statement as my AW-93 feels very different on the last shot than does the MG-2. My preference would be to not have the bolt stay open after the last shot because it definitely does not allow for the same kind of follow through as on previous shots.

Oh, by the way, why worry about counting to 5? You shouldn't be counting, but rather concentrating on the shooting!

Mark,
If you don't mind me asking, who is the dealer for FWB pistol in Canada right now? And did you purchase it in Canada or had it imported? Yhanks in advance.

Tony

Trinity wrote:
"I am not aware of any serious target pistol that holds the bolt open after the last shot."

The Hammerli 208, the Unique DES 69, the Browning Medalist, the S&W Model 41, and the High Standard Citation (and Trophy) each hold the bolt open after the last shot. These are serious target pistols. They have been used to set records. Sure, its fashionable to "put down" American iron (S&W, HS) in "International" circles, but that's just snobbery.
The bullet is long gone from the barrel by the time the slide reaches the end of its rearward travel, so locking the slide back has no effect on the point of impact of the bullet, but it sure reduces the incidence of broken firing pins and peened chambers that result when the trigger is pulled with the slide forward on an empty chamber because the shooter has "lost count" (been there, done that, and have heard many another serious target shooter do it, too).

Mike T. wrote:Trinity wrote:
"I am not aware of any serious target pistol that holds the bolt open after the last shot."

The Hammerli 208, the Unique DES 69, the Browning Medalist, the S&W Model 41, and the High Standard Citation (and Trophy) each hold the bolt open after the last shot. These are serious target pistols. They have been used to set records. Sure, its fashionable to "put down" American iron (S&W, HS) in "International" circles, but that's just snobbery.

The bullet is long gone from the barrel by the time the slide reaches the end of its rearward travel, so locking the slide back has no effect on the point of impact of the bullet, but it sure reduces the incidence of broken firing pins and peened chambers that result when the trigger is pulled with the slide forward on an empty chamber because the shooter has "lost count" (been there, done that, and have heard many another serious target shooter do it, too).

The reason for me to not choose any those pistols is certanly not because of they happen to be designed in america or has a bolt that stays open after the last shot. The reason is obvious by only looking at them, the barrel has a too high position over the hand. (the 69/U is almost ok, the browning I dont know about)

Btw, I allways "loose count" on purpouse, I allways shoot the 6ht shot. A correctly designed pistol has no relevant problem with that, in my experince, a firingpin last for more than 100 000 shots witch for me is about 15 000 firings on empty chamber. Pardini GP and Sako Triace is so. The Unique DES 2000/U is much worse, about every 3000 shot a firingpin is broken, but there is a fundamental design error in that pin.

As I see it, a competion pistol should be absolutly focused on performance, reliabilty do not have to be super, it only has to be decent. It is for me absolutly weird to optimize for reliabilty and longtivity and sacrifice performance.

Pär

Tony - to answer your question, the Canadian dealer is Jocelyn Langlois at Cibles Canada Targets. He currently has a stock of several pistols (two or three that I know of), as well as a good selection of Rink grips to fit. The pistols he has in stock were ordered without the factory grip because it's less than ideal, so this means that when you buy a pistol you can choose the appropriate Rink grip right from the start without incurring a huge cost penalty.


Mark.

PS: On the comments about the Brownings, High Standards and S&W's, I can only say that they are all fine pistols in their own right. I still love my Smith 41 and will likely never part with it, but won't shoot it in competition because it has serious design flaws which make it far less than optimal for the task. An Olympic gold medallist in Sport Pistol was handling my 41 and commented, "Did you know I set a world record with one of these?" Of course, she has a fondness for the pistol as a result. But her comment was quickly followed by another... "I had to switch to a GSP because the 41, with its high barrel and sight line and bolt that moves back over the hand, wouldn't get me to the podium." I think that pretty much sums up where these pistols stand - in their day they were the best of breed, but time has marched on and better products are now available. For somebody who doesn't have the cash for a top-of-the-line standard pistol, or doesn't want that level of performance, the 41, Medallist and Victor represent the next best thing.

Justin , I,m mulling over the same question . For me it's a circle , and keeps leading back to the Walther GSP expert . Reliability seems high , mechanical simplicity is elegant , good availability on the secondary market , and a good deal of backwards/forwards parts compatability . I have heard of , and personally used a Walther with between half and a million rounds thru them .

Price is not too much of a factor , new prices ( at least suggested list ) seem close to other standard/sport pistols. I also find the .32 top unit a nice feature

At my club there is a pretty good availability of emergency spare parts . When you get into more exoctic lines this is less likley to happen .

Chris

P.S. I just wish I could shoot my LP50 in sport and standard pistol .

To go back to the original question, I would recommend the section on Standard Pistol in the Hitchiker's Guide (on our host's site). There is a pretty in-depth analysis of the guns there. The jury is still out on the latest Pardinis, not to mention the whole debate on which SP is best for RF. It's starting to look like SPs can benefit from recoil reducers, but RF pistols can't. Though I could be proven wrong.....

Don't worry about the bolt hold-open. The only serious gun that does not have a manual hold-open is the Baikal Izh-35 - and not all of them. You are loaded with only five shots anyway. When you run out, you are finished with that string. Dry-fire the 6th shot anyway.

Also, dig through the archives - there's been a lot of stuff posted.

Now, since you are shooting NRA Bullseye as well, you have another issue - compatability with a 1911. You will probably want a gun with a relatively upright grip - like a Hammerli 208s, a Unique, or a GSP. Maybe an AW-93. Not a Pardini.

Par (please excuse my spelling, I don't have the double dots for the "a") wrote: "...the barrel has a too high position over the hand..."
I question whether this is a true detriment (Mark's Gold Medalist friend notwithstanding), to wit:
The American Conventional Pistol record for the Rapid Fire match (four strings of five shots, each string in 10 seconds) is 200-20X. The diameter of the X-ring on the 25-yard target is 1.695 inches. Thus the extreme spread, centre-to-centre, of the record shot-group did not exceed 1.919 inches. Theses scores have been fired with Hammerli 208(s), S&W 41, and Marvel conversion on a 1911 pistol. The proportionate group size on the ISSF 25-metre Precision target, would be 53.28 mm. Allowing for the bullet diameter, the extreme spread would be 47.68 mm, edge to edge. That fits within the 50 mm diameter of the Precision 10-ring. That is, those guns with the barrel "too high position over the hand" would do just fine in Standard Pistol 10-second series. Now, Rapid Fire is another story, I agree.

height of the axis of the bore over the hand has to do with perceived recoil and recovery for follow up shots. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of the guns in question.
To illustrate this principle, find a gun without an ISSF-style target grip, like a stock Ruger Mk II. First, establish a grip as high as you can and fire off some shots as quickly as you can fire them accurately. Next, establish a grip as low as you can and still pull the trigger, and fire some shots as quickly as you can fire them accurately. You'll find the former is easier/faster than the latter.

Mike T. wrote:Par (please excuse my spelling, I don't have the double dots for the "a") wrote: "...the barrel has a too high position over the hand..."
I question whether this is a true detriment (Mark's Gold Medaslist friend notwithstanding), to wit:
The American Conventional Pistol record for the Rapid Fire match (four strings of five shots, each string in 10 seconds) is 200-20X. The diameter of the X-ring on the 25-yard target is 1.695 inches. Thus the extreme spread, centre-to-centre, of the record shot-group did not exceed 1.919 inches. Theses scores have been fired with Hammerli 208(s), S&W 41, and Marvel conversion on a 1911 pistol. The proportionate group size on the ISSF 25-metre Precision target, would be 53.28 mm. Allowing for the bullet diameter, the extreme spread would be 47.68 mm, edge to edge. That fits within the 50 mm diameter of the Precision 10-ring. That is, those guns with the barrel "too high position over the hand" would do just fine in Standard Pistol 10-second series. Now, Rapid Fire is another story, I agree.

Sparky wrote: "height of the axis of the bore over the hand has to do with perceived recoil and recovery for follow up shots. It has nothing to do with the accuracy of the guns in question"

No argument from me there, Sparky. The point I am trying to make is that even with the longer recovery time associated with the higher barrel position, skilled shooters using those pistols have shot groups that would score 100 on the 25-metre ISSF Precision target. Down to at least the 10-seconds series, the longer recovery time is not a detriment. It is all about rhythm and commitment to the trigger, not about recovery time. The NRA Conventional Pistol scores are the proof.
Now if a shooter believes that his (or her) high-barrel-axis-pistol places him at a disadvantage compared to the low-barrel-axis-pistol, then it does! The shooter must have no reservations about his equipment.

Since the low-barrel-axis-pistols are easier and faster, how come they aren't producing Standard Pistol scores of 100 in the 10-second stage? Heck, even the .45 Auto 1911 pistol can be shot to the 100-10X level (Conventional Pistol) and its recovery time is even greater than an S&W Model 41.
Again, I say that 25 m Rapid Fire Pistol is another matter. Here, I believe that the shorter recovery time of the "low barrel" pistol can be a factor.

So, back to my original postulate: Those "high barrel" pistols I mentioned (and a couple more I didn't) with slides that lock open after the last shot are proven "serious" target pistols. If a shooter wants a target gun on which the slide locks open after the last shot, he not only has a selection of such guns, but he can be confident that they can perform as well as any of the target guns on which the slide does not lock back after the last shot - at least in Standard Pistol. The same is true for Sport Pistol and Center Fire Pistol, but these are essentially "single-shot" events in which recovery time is not a factor.

Mike T. wrote:Since the low-barrel-axis-pistols are easier and faster, how come they aren't producing Standard Pistol scores of 100 in the 10-second stage?

They do, although not often enough I will admit.

IMHO the main difference between the top level guns and, for example, the Trophy or 41, is not that they are more accurate or capable of shooting high scores. They are just easier to consistently shoot high scores with.

Mike,

I believe your one-to-one comparison of 10 second conventional RF and the standard pistol 10 second series is a bit misleading. First off, the ISSF event requires a start from the ready position, so that the time on target is actually shorter than 10 seconds.

But more importantly, ISSF standard pistol is not shot anywhere near as often as conventional RF. It is not an Olympic event, not shot in World Cups, and consequently rather neglected in countries where pistol shooting is primarily Olympic-oriented, i.e. most of the world. Even if the target sizes can be compared, the number of attempts on those targets is not at all comparable. Thus top/record scores will not be comparable.

I'm not sure I disagree with your basic contention, but I do disagree with your argument supporting it. In any case, the Euro manufacturers design their pistols primarily for the Olympic events, none of which are at all comparable to conventional RF.

FredB

Egads! It wasn't my intention to start a flame war! :)

I will say this much: I really like my S&W, and have shot some pretty decent scores with it. What I'm really interested in is comparing and contrasting the various European designs.

As for the bolt-hold open, if you guys don't really see the need for one, I'm willing to be open-minded about the subject. Even though I've been shooting Olympic style and NRA style bullseye for a couple of years, I've really only recently started to get serious about competition, and am willing to listen to what works for other, better shooters. :)

Par (please excuse my spelling, I don't have the double dots for the "a")

You can type the ä character by holding down the Alt key on your keyboard, and while holding it down, type 0228 on your numberpad. When you release the Alt, it will display the character.

Or, if you're running a Windows OS, go to Start>Run and in the dialogue box, type charmap. This will bring up a little applet that displays all of the extra ASCII characters that aren't anywhere on your keyboard. From there you can just select the one you need.

Justin wrote:Egads! It wasn't my intention to start a flame war! :)

Don't worry about it Justin, we will all argue about anything. (Who's going to be the first one to disagree?)

I won't. And there are few shooting subjects more entertaining than the Standard Pistol Wars. Lots of guns, lots of makers, lots of opinions. Good, clean fun.