TargetTalk

Hi
ive been shooting olympic style for about 3 years now and when i started shooting....i started with a streyr..
then i switched over to a morini...now im on the fence about shooting a morini or a streyr....i know about everything else....but the only thing that i need advice from someone who actually knows what they are talking about on the pros and cons of mechanical and electronic triggers.
whats important to me are facts, so please keep the opinions to a minimum as i need to make my own decision.

thank you very much
National Development Team Member

Olympian wrote:Hi
ive been shooting olympic style for about 3 years now and when i started shooting....i started with a streyr..
then i switched over to a morini...now im on the fence about shooting a morini or a streyr....i know about everything else....but the only thing that i need advice from someone who actually knows what they are talking about on the pros and cons of mechanical and electronic triggers.
whats important to me are facts, so please keep the opinions to a minimum as i need to make my own decision.

thank you very much
National Development Team Member

Steyr and Morini are both top pistols - fact number one. What do YOU prefer - Steyr or Morini - fact number two.

Really, shoot with what you like, it's as simple like that.

/Axel

Like Axel says there's not one real answer. I understand electronic triggers to be slightly better in theory but it isn't that simple. You need to decide for yourself which gun works best for you. That's a combination of all aspects of the gun, of which the trigger is just a small part. Look for the gun you feel happiest with and stick with it.

As has been said many times before the gun is merely a tool. You as a shooter need to feel comfortable with that tool. That is what will give you the best results not the technical merits of a Steyr trigger v a Morini trigger (IMHO).

Rob.

I have both Steyr LP10 and Morini 162EI.

Both are top pistols and they are often used by the winners of international competitions.

My personal preference is the Steyr. I think that it has far superior build quality and a better trigger (I can hear the Morini fans wailing). It sits lower in the hand, has a more adjustable grip and is absolutely dead in the hand on firing which the Morini isn't, it has muzzzle flip. And, you don't need a screw driver to adjust the sights (a pet hate of mine).

By the way, don't let anyone tell you that an electronic trigger has less moving parts than a mechanical one as there are the same number of parts that move in each of my air pistols.

You said "no opinions" but I dont see how anyone can address your question without offering one or two.

I have a Morini 162EI.

I have a Steyr LP50 (5 shot repeater)

The mechanical trigger on the LP50 is (in my opinion) awful when compared to the Morini electronic.

HOWEVER, I've shot more than a few Steyr LP1 and LP10's which also have mechanical triggers. These triggers are every bit as good as the electronic on my Morini.

My Conclusion: The Morini electronic is no better quality wise than any of the Steyr LP series with the exception of the LP50. I'm guessing the LP50's trigger is that way because it's a repeater.

One feature that I find advantageous about the electronic trigger is that you do not have to re cock the gun in between dry fire shots. The electronic trigger resets automatically.

I like that feature because I'm a lazy sod - that's a fact.

Both guns have great feel and balance but you will probably find one or the other more to your liking. I have not noted a difference in the overall quality between the Steyrs and Morinis. Both are beautifully engineered.

Good luck with your choice.

F. Paul in Denver

By the way, I also concur with J-team re the sights on the Morini. It makes no damn sense to me why Morini insists on requiring a screwdriver to make adjustments when a much better system is available.

On the other hand, I wouldnt let this obstinate reliance on old technology make my decision for me. That would be letting the tail wag the dog. It's merely an annoyance.

Hi Olympian.

I've recently been re-reading a report that I received from Noptel on performance factors which affect air pistol (and by extension, all pistol) outcomes. Through testing hundreds of shooters of all ability on their systems three factors where identified as critical:
1. ability to hold
2. ability to aim
3. cleanliness of trigger

Noptel believes that they can predict how a shooter will perform based on the steadiness and footprint of his hold. The greater the consistency and the smaller the area he/she can hold, will be the greatest determinant of their general ability. We'll call this their optimal performance.

Their hold's optimal performance then has the impact of their ability to aim consistently subtracted from it. If their consistency is poor in their sight picture or area of aim, then their optimal performance (as determined by hold) is greatly diminshed. If they are consistent, then their optimal hold is only slightly diminished. Aim cannot improve optimal performance, but it can diminish outcomes based on consistency. Let's call this hold-aim performance, because it is lates, I'm tired and not feeling particularly creative.

The cleanliness of the trigger is the wild card. The trigger ability may either add or subtract from your hold-aim performance. Ever had a shoot that felt and looked bad but it ended up in the 10? Well, Noptel would have categorized you as an optimizer whose triggering action benefited the drawbacks of your hold and aim. There are other people who have the most amazing hold, but snatch shots well outside their area of hold. Their trigger action is to their detriment.

So, performance is air pistol, according to Noptel is determined as:
hold - aim +/- trigger

What does this mean to you, with regards to choosing a pistol? Well, look at the elements which support a good hold (the greatest determinant factor.) Most importantly, does the grip fit your hand? Is the pistol centred in your hand? Can you produce a consistent and sustainable hold with that gun?

Then I'd look at the sights (for the second determinant factor, consistency of aim.) Are they easy to see by your eyes? Is the width of the front post sufficiently wide to be seen crisply? Does the rear sight adjust enough that you can accomodate different lighting in different ranges?

Lastly, does the trigger support optimization for you? Note: this is for you, not for the masses. Can you reach the trigger comfortably without drawing wood (finger contacting the grip while triggering)? Is the mechanism smooth? Can you set it up as either two-stage or single stage, depending on what style suits your preference?

You have to analyse these factors in relation to what works best for you. My household has 1 LP-10 and 3 162EIs. Personally, I prefer the thicker grip of the Morini over the LP-10, because FOR ME variances in grip pressure cause the Steyr to change point of aim dramatically. The wider grip of the Morini is more forgiving to me and supports my deficiencies in hold.

I also think that the Morini trigger is smoother and more consistent than the Steyr. For me, I think that this reduces the negative impact of triggering on my personal hold-aim performance.

Here's another factor that you may want to consider: service. While in the USA, Scott Pilkington offers great support. When you go international, you will have more interaction with the actual manufacturers. Your relationship with them will become important. While at the Munich World Cup in the capacity of a national pistol coach, I spoke with both Steyr and Morini.

The folks at Steyr, when asked for a couple of seals, acted as if this was the greatest imposition on their time. After a 5 minute inquisition, they begrudgingly handed over 5 seals for free. Another member of my delegation had had problems with the new trigger shoe that came with her LP-10, and she wanted to replace it with one of the older, better shoes. They wanted 50 Euros. After 15 minutes, they offered it for 15 Euros. She passed on their offer.

She then walked across the venue and bought another Morini for several hundred Euro. Why? Morini, especially through Francesco, offers the greatest service I have ever experienced. Instead of fighting with a customer, arguing why he can't help you, he just helps out. Francesco listens and starts offering solutions. For instance, in Milan, a grip maker was available to work on any Morini grip or pistol that was brought to him. He worked the entire match, often with a lineup, from 7:30am, until about 4pm. He'd spend between 1.5 - 3 hours on each grip. This was a FREE service for Morini customers. At the same time, two Morini technicians were waiting to inspect and overhaul any pistols brought to them. Once again, free. Many times, you walk away feeling as if you OWE Morini for what they have done for you. I cannot say the same thing for Steyr.

So, consider how the two pistols support the performance factors (hold, aim, trigger) associated with your ability. Select the better one based on that criteria. This is the only objective route to choose between guns. (Electronic trainers could help you determine which gun best supports these factors.) After that, I would seriously consider what level of support you will get from the manufacturers as you move closer and closer to achieving your Olympic goals.

Best regards.
Patrick Haynes
http://www.targetshooting.ca

Patrick Haynes wrote:
For instance, in Milan, a grip maker was available to work on any Morini grip or pistol that was brought to him. He worked the entire match, often with a lineup, from 7:30am, until about 4pm. He'd spend between 1.5 - 3 hours on each grip. This was a FREE service for Morini customers. At the same time, two Morini technicians were waiting to inspect and overhaul any pistols brought to them. Once again, free. Many times, you walk away feeling as if you OWE Morini for what they have done for you. I cannot say the same thing for Steyr.

http://www.targetshooting.ca

Hi Patrick,

I really enjoy your posts, and appreciate your point of view, so I hate to quibble with something you wrote, but this thing has been bugging me.

In a nutshell, there ain't no free lunch. While I'm sure it is very gratifying to receive Morini's excellent service at international matches, the fact remains that the vast majority of Morini customers will never be able to avail themselves of this service.

And while the Morini team is providing this support to the elite shooters, who is at home minding the store? For example, I have been trying to get information on some parts for an older Morini since early May of this year, and have yet to receive the necessary info., apparently because Francesco has been away or busy during this time.

In addition, someone has to pay the travel and labor costs associated with Morini's "free" service, and I think it's safe to assume that those costs are built into the price of their products. So, while the elite shooters are indeed getting a good deal, the rest of us are paying more than we would otherwise pay, and not receiving that service.

I just felt compelled to mention this, since you have recently written at least twice about the stellar Morini service. There is another side to it.

FredB

OK, time for me to say something here...

Firstly, I have an LP1, and LP10 and a 162EI. The LP1 is my backup gun, while the 162EI is my main gun. The LP-10 is gathering dust. "Why" you might ask? Because the LP10 trigger is far, far inferior to that of either the LP1 or the 162. Granted, the interal parts are the same for the LP1 and LP10, but the larger breech bolt of the LP10 mandates a different geometry for the parts to fit in the receiver. The net result is that the LP10 cannot achieve as light, as short or as crisp a second stage as the LP1. I've felt more than a few LP10 triggers, and they're not all the same, with the main difference being the age of the gun. After lots of shots the LP10 trigger gets better. But I don't have the time to run 10,000 or 20,000 shots through the pistol - I need it to work now. Both the LP1 and 162 worked right for me from the first shot.

And on the service side, I've got to second Patrick's comments. I've never been to a match were Morini factory support was present so I haven't had the benefit of those services. But I've had problems with my 162 and my CM84E free pistol that Morini has bent over backwards to fix for me. This service has been executed through e-mail and mail transactions, but I must say I've had no dealings with them since the spring of this year so can't suggest how they're doing right now. The bottom line for me is that Morini factory support has made it easy to own a Morini.

With that having been said, I don't have a hate on for Steyr. I think they're under increased financial scrutiny right now, which would have an obvious impact on their "freebie" services at matches.

One other point to note with respect to pricing. In the Canadian market the CM162 is at least $300 cheaper than the LP-10. If we're paying higher prices for Morini's to offset the cost of better support at matches, why is the LP10 so expensive?

Anyway, getting back to the original question... I like an air pistol trigger to have a short, crisp and light 2nd stage. This is easily achieveable with both the LP-1 and the CM162. The 162EI has the added advantage of constant trigger pressure after the shot breaks, whereas on the Steyr mechanical trigger the pressure drops drastically once the sear has been released, requiring the use of an over-travel setting. The Morini electronic trigger feels lighter to me than the Steyr, even though my testing shows they both break at almost the same weight (within 5 grams). So for me the nod goes to the Morini. But I still haven't achieved better scores with the Morini than those I've shot with the LP-1... ;-)

While I am a big fan of the Steyr pistol I would have to agree with those that don't rate the service. In my opinion it has declined since "Steyr Sportwaffen" became it's own entity. When it was part of the larger "Steyr Daimler Puch" company it was much better.

Anyone considering an LP10, please don't be put off by a previous poster saying;

"the pressure drops drastically once the sear has been released, requiring the use of an over-travel setting"

As I have stated before in another post, my LP10 trigger feels to have no drop-off in weight when the sear releases, and goes with no discernable movement into the long second stage spring pressure.

I think anyone with this problem should have their trigger looked at.

PS, I too believe the Morini Electronic has a nicer letoff.

All:

With all due respect to Denis, I offer the following facts which you can verify for yourself or just ask the factory:

1) At moment of release there is no force dropoff in Morini electronic trigger, making overtravel irrelevant

2) The force dropoff in the LP-10 (and just about all modern mechanical designs), whether you "feel" it or not, exists and is generally in the neighborhood of whatever you have set as your 1st-2d stage differential OR MORE. O.K., so go ahead and place your overtravel stop as close to your release point as possible- fine, now you have made the drop-off region (with repect to TRAVEL) shorter- but you can NEVER get it to go away completely. And Oh By The Way, you now have 1st stage-2d stage- dropoff- infinity as your force profile over travel. Well, ok., maybe not "infinity" when you hit the overtravel stop (for the nit-pickers out there) but up to the force required to deform the overtravel mechanism.

EITHER WAY

You will have to learn the proper trigger technique for whatever gun you choose to use.

And the comment about electronics having "just as many moving parts" as a mechanical is also easily checkable and verifiable. Not sure why some people are so sensitive about the electronics having fewer moving parts . . .

Steve Swartz

Hi Fred.

Fred wrote:

Patrick Haynes wrote:
I just felt compelled to mention this, since you have recently written at least twice about the stellar Morini service. There is another side to it.

FredB

While in the domestic market, you have to rely upon your suppliers. In the USA, I believe Scott Pilkington is your contact. He's a great guy (honest, I've met him) and an excellent business man. In most cases, he should be able to offer you the assistance you need. He's a good business man and it's in his best interests to help you out.

As Mark Briggs mentioned, Morini bent over backwards to help him out. At the time, he was a "pre-international" shooter (he has since shot at the 2005 USA World Cup and he will be attending the Championship of the Americas.) Essentially, he was a faceless customer on another continent and he got great service. Morini has done similar things for other Canadians.

I can't say what the disconnect in Morini service is or why you're experiencing that. this is the busy season for them. Still, that is no excuse. I don't deny your experience, but I can stand behind what I have seen. There is a price difference between the Steyr and the Morini, with the Morini coming out cheaper in Canada. Regardless, the prices are comparable. I definitely get the impression that Morini wants people's business and is trying to make a difference in service.

I should also talk about the difference in selling style. At the Munich and Milan WCs, just about every manufacturer (note: the exception of Hammerli as a complete no-show at both events which is a HUGE red flag) had their display tables covered with pistols for people to look at. Bennelli, Tesro, Walther, Steyr, Pardini, etc. Lots of guns.

Morini didn't have one pistol on display. Lots of available techs, but nothing to shoot. Why? They just kept on selling people guns. Francesco was working the crowd delivering product. Everyone knew the guns and those interested where snapping them up.

I'd wager almost half of the Munich free pistol line were Morinis (someone asked me to photograph Morini compensators and I was getting exhausted taking so many pictures.)

Also, Morini seem to be the dominant air pistol, maybe tied with the Steyr. Its hard to see which one has the largest slice.

Morini hasn't made any real penetration into the standard pistol market. Pardini looks popular, as do the FWBs. Next time, I'll start joting down the stats.

I only saw one MG22 which was in Milan being used by a member of the Italian pistol team. Ceasar Morini watched over the performance. I would say that the Pardini has the majority of that market, and I'd wager once the Pardini SP Electronic becomes more popular, you'll see more in the Women's event.

All things being equal, the guns are all good. Each has its benfits and drawbacks. If you find the right pistol for you AND you train, you'll do well. Steyr or Morini: its like trying to decide whether to drive the Ferrari or the Lambourghini (not even pretending to know how to spell that.) You'll do fine with either one and you'll be hard pressed to exceed their performance capabilities.

I'm rambling again. Sorry.
Patrick

Steve

2005 World Cup winners:

Mens Air - Steyr 4 Morini 0

Not too bad for a pistol with a trigger that colapses on firing.

Oh, Morini did win some of the Womens Air Pistol World Cups which means that it too is a good pistol... for girls.

it was reported that the 2000 women's AP winner, who used a Morini then and was then given a gold-plated morini (with which she did not do as well in 2004) has this year converted to a Steyr.

Poole

Hmmm . . . I learned as a child that when discussing a point with someone, the moment they change the subject is pretty much the moment the discussion has become pointless.

Steve