TargetTalk

Perhaps a seemingly very obvious question but I'm becoming convinced that a palm shelf can be the cause of a number of problems if not fitted correctly. To start with I had my palmshelf just lightly resting on my lower hand. I then moved it so it was snugger, but not, I thought too snug. I have since spent a few hundred pounds ($400) on a couple of new grips which whilst they were needed partially convinced me that at least some of the problems I was experiencing were because the palm shelf was just a little bit too tight.

So back to the question, is the palm shelf there to steady your hand, to make the grip feel 'snug', to help you locate your hand in exactly the same position every time - or a combination thereof, or am I missing something ?

Your thoughts please,

Rob.

For me, the back portion of the shelf helps to hold the muzzle up, by preventing the grip from slipping/rotating in my hand, otherwise I have to grip the grip TIGHTER.

This is exactly the situation when I shoot my Daisy 747. It does not have a palm shelf, so I have to grip TIGHTER. And when I do that I get tired faster and I wobble more. My "fix" for this was to put a small square of plastic "non-skid" on the backstrap. While not as good as a palm shelf, it helped a LOT.

Now as to how tight, this is a matter of experiementation. For me, too tight and if I change my grip pressure even a little, the hand expansion pushes down on the palm rest and my aim is off. During a match goes on, I have to check if my hand swelled, and if so I have to readjust the palm rest.

Gary

Well, Mr. Stubbs, it would appear you've hit upon one of those famous million-dollar questions. Unfortunately I have to believe there is no single correct answer. I'll try to relate here my particular experiences and see if they add any value to the discussion.

Having shot for most of my life using pistols not equipped with a palm shelf, I can clearly state that a palm shelf serves to provide a basis for accurate positional indexing of the hand. In the case of nose-heavy pistols the palmshelf also aids in preventing the hand from sliding down the backstrap of the pistol, thus preventing the muzzle from dropping. When I installed a Morini grip on my S&W Model 41 there was a significant improvement in grouping ability as a result of being able to index my hand to the grip with good repeatability. The palm shelf is a major contributor to this position indexing.

In Air Pistol I find the presence of a palm shelf to be of more subtle effect, and in fact have shot all of my high-end air pistols without the palm shelf as a means of determining the need for some grip modifications. The palm shelf seems to stabilize the hand and provide some upward pressure on the hand to ensure consistant contact on the top side of the thumb-forefinger web. I probably shouldn't admit this, but I have one pistol which is fairly nose-heavy and the rear edge of the palmshelf actually serves as a point at which I exert downward pressure. The middle finger supporting the pistol acts as a pivot point so the downward pressure on the rear edge of the palmshelf tends to counteract the effect of nose-heavy balance in this pistol.

The function of the palmshelf in Free Pistol is entirely different in that the palmshelf is an integral part of the encasement of the entire hand. The end result of the combination of a full palmshelf and wrap-around grip produces a fully stabilized support for the hand. Shooting a free pistol without a palmshelf installed is a very interesting proposition indeed as the lack of support produces huge shifts in point-of-impact resulting from the gun recoiling very differently. In a previous post I documented some of the differences between the current Morini-style FP palmshelf and that offered by the Rink grip - you might find some info there that will provide more insight (or not... LoL).

Mark,
Thanks for the reply. My question was really coming at this from the angle of the downsides to having an incorrectly fitting palmshelf - in my case too tight. I'm reasonably convinced that a problem I experienced was caused by me having a palmshelf that was too tight. Not a lot too tight but enough to cause my wrist to twist over a course of fire. The 'problems' appeared to have worsened over the last 8-10 months and I suspect coincided with me raising my palmshelf. Interestingly I never experienced problems to the same degree with my free pistol - which has a fixed grip i.e. not adjustable. If my theories are correct then I'll be happy to have resolved the problem and have fewer wrist/sight picture problems. I have also got the new Rink grips which give me a much better natural point of aim. And of course the fact that my shooting feels better and scores appear to be going back up also help :-) .

Rob.

Rob

Before you cut into the grip...I found for me that my hand swells differently based on the time of year. Might have something to do with the ambient temperature. Which is why for me I need an adjustable palm shelf, or I would need shims to pad the shelf when my hand is not as swollen.

Gary

Rob - I've never been brave enough to try shooting a tight-fitting palm shelf for more than a few weeks at a time. Yes, I've had mine too tight, particularly on the AP's. This turned out to be my feable attempt to compensate for other weaknesses. What I found was that, if I left the gun alone for a week or two and then picked it up again, a tight palmshelf would cause me to feel pressure on the top of my hand, and I'd be very conscious of feeling the stippling on the palmshelf itself. Once I felt this I'd realize I had it too tight and would lower it a tad. This allowed me to go back to basics, analyzing the faults in my technique which had led to me using a tight palmshelf to compensate for these faults.

The interesting thing about palmshelfs is that I don't adjust the palmshelf on my AP or standard pistols very often, maybe twice a year, if that. But in FP I'm constantly fiddling with it, several times during a match as my hand changes size quite drastically. It would appear the wrap-around grip exacerbates the problems of having hands that change size. Perhaps I should just cut off my right hand and glue the gun directly on the stump. That would certainly resolve a lot of grip problems!

Mark Briggs wrote:Perhaps I should just cut off my right hand and glue the gun directly on the stump. That would certainly resolve a lot of grip problems!

That might give some trigger problems, me thinks <g>.

Rob.

While in Milan, I had the opportunity to watch Ciro the Grip God (well, maybe not a true god, but a helluva good fellow) from Morini fit several dozen guns for everyone. Usually, he spent an hour and a half on a grip, with the exception of free pistols, which could take anywhere up to 3 hours. (This, of course, was a free service for ANYONE with a Morini gun or grip. Free. An entire week of work. Folks, if you're not buying Morini, then you're cheating yourself of the best service available for international shooters.)

In each case, if possible, Ciro would extend the palm shelf rearward as far as legally possible, making sure it fit in the box and did not fail the wrist-break test. He stated that this was MOST important. There was a language barrier between us stopping him from going further in depth.

I had him do a grip up for my 162EI and the stock grip was almost perfect. As it was, he extended the palm shelf (in the process rendering it unadjustable). Also of note, he thought that while the shelf was adjusted properly (tight), it was causing some compression in the heel of my hand, causing the skin to be pinched and wrinkled. He ground the area out, fitting it to my hand. It felt and looked beautiful. I came home, went to the Provincials using the new (untested) grip and shot one of the worst scores this season. *LoL* Serves me right for breaking every rule I tell the athletes.

I believe now that with the extended palm shelf, the gun's weight is counterbalanced against my wrist, allowing me to keep it steadier without having to increase grip pressure. My hold seems more natural, steadier and takes less effort. I also have more confidence in it, because Morini's Ciro worked on it!

I can't absolutely say why Ciro did it, but it was the most important component in Ciro's mind. That, by itself, caught my attention.

Patrick

Patrick Haynes wrote:
In each case, if possible, Ciro would extend the palm shelf rearward as far as legally possible, making sure it fit in the box and did not fail the wrist-break test. He stated that this was MOST important. There was a language barrier between us stopping him from going further in depth.

I can't absolutely say why Ciro did it, but it was the most important component in Ciro's mind. That, by itself, caught my attention.

Patrick

Patrick,

Thank you for sharing this with us. It is most interesting to me, as I have bone in my wrist, just on the hand side of the pivot point, that causes pain when I use a palm shelf extended as you describe. Therefore I have ground all my grips off to give clearance to that boney area, and their palm shelfs are now relatively short. So, according to Ciro, I have been doing exactly the opposite of the right thing (maybe I shouldn't have thanked you for this info!! ;-)).

I have always assumed that my hand anatomy is not that different from others', but maybe I'm wrong. Is this painful (to me) contact point a problem with your newly-modified grip? Are you supporting significant weight on that boney area, but without discomfort? Given that all grips except FP grips must not have any dips or hollows in the palm shelf, how is this situation dealt with?

Also, I'm quite curious how Ciro added the extensions you described. Are they separate pieces glued on? Or did he substitute a new longer palm shelf?

Looking forward to more info...TIA.

FredB

Hi Fred.

Sorry to hear of the pain from the extension. I don't have that issue, even when I throw a heavy barrel weight on my Morini. Maybe I have too much padding around my bones to notice any discomfort? *s*

Ciro works exclusively with Morini Compound. He roughs up the wood surface and then starts building it out and squaring it off. When it is completely dry, he bends the new addition, making the slightest gap between the wood and the compound. Here is his secret: he puts SuperGlue in the gap and all along the compound/wood joint.

I'll try to get some pictures up to show what he did.

Patrick

Thanks, Patrick! Looking forward to the pictures when you get to it.

FredB