TargetTalk

I hope someone can help me.

I have a hammerli 150 free pistol and I noticed in my targets that I had a tendency to shoot lower in the second half of a match than in the first half. I resolved the issue adding some weight to the grip of the gun. I used a large screw that I placed in 45 degree angle at the bottom of the grip and I put some weights to it. When I aim the gun the screw and weights go parallel below my forearm (without touching it) almost half of it. I improved dramatically my score at the latest match and like always happens a lot of people notice it and now there are a few of them saying it is illegal. I checked the rule book and there is no mention about weights and their location anywhere in the book. Do any of you know if what I have done it is illegal or not? Now I feel a perfect balance of the gun so I don’t know it is an unfair advantage over the rest of shooters.


Thank you

I don't see how this could be illegal under ISSF rules. That's the whole point of Free Pistol - it is essentially free from restrictions. The only rules are that it is 22LR, held in one hand, one cartridge is loaded at a time, and the grip does not touch the wrist.
Other than that it can as long as you like, as heavy as you like, the barrel can be of any length, the trigger can be of any weight, and you can attach weights wherever you like.
There is a subjective rule (8.4.1.1) which says that...

"Anything which may give a shooter an unfair advantage over others and which is not mentioned in these Rules, or which is contrary to the spirit of the ISSF Regulations and Rules, is prohibited,

but I cannot see attaching weights would violate this (a battery driven gyroscopic stabiliser maybe - but not extra weights!).

You may want to look at the SAM50 Free Pistol on the new SAM site (which has a much better layout than the previous site).

What you are suggesting is completely in accordance with the rules, and IMHO the spirit of the rules.

[quote="David Levene"]You may want to look at the SAM50 Free Pistol on the new SAM site (which has a much better layout than the previous site).
quote]

Helped in part by featuring a simply gorgeous looking woman :)

You have been very helpful, now I will be more comfortable using my gun at the club and it is a shame it wasn’t a new idea. It seems Sam and other makers are building pistols with weights at the back instead of the regular weights at the front.

Thank you very much

elcambur wrote:It seems Sam and other makers are building pistols with weights at the back instead of the regular weights at the front.

The ones you see with weights attached the back are probably "Long Arm" Free Pistols designed for the British market. These increase the over-all length of the firearm to the extent that they are not legally regarded as "pistols" (which are banned in the UK).

I'd be interested in hearing from any British long-arm FP users who were shooting before the pistol ban came into effect. Do you prefer the Long-arm over the traditional Free Pistol? If the law was changed to allow all ISSF pistol shooting from tomorrow, would you be removing the rear extenders as soon as QEII signed the legislation into force - or would you leave them as they are? David - do you have any thoughts on this?

Fortitudo Dei wrote:There is a subjective rule (8.4.1.1) which says that...

"Anything which may give a shooter an unfair advantage over others and which is not mentioned in these Rules, or which is contrary to the spirit of the ISSF Regulations and Rules, is prohibited,

but I cannot see attaching weights would violate this (a battery driven gyroscopic stabiliser maybe - but not extra weights!).

Ah, a gyroscopic stabiliser. Would it not cause more troubles than it would be of help? I mean, wouldn't it make your arms tire more quickly since there is an increased "perceived mass" or inertia?
- Has anyone ever tried it? (ignoring the fact that it probably would violate "the spirit" of the rules)

/John

Fortitudo Dei wrote: I'd be interested in hearing from any British long-arm FP users who were shooting before the pistol ban came into effect. Do you prefer the Long-arm over the traditional Free Pistol? If the law was changed to allow all ISSF pistol shooting from tomorrow, would you be removing the rear extenders as soon as QEII signed the legislation into force - or would you leave them as they are? David - do you have any thoughts on this?

I have heard it said that free pistol shooters who shot with the old free pistols prefer the 'UK long arm' version. We had one or two international shooters who had them after the ban (held outside of the UK) so they were actively shooting theirs - well as actively as you can when you have to travel outside the country to shoot it. I personally shoot a UK version but I never shot an 'ordinary' free pistol so I can't personally comment on the difference.

Rob.

Fortitudo Dei wrote:I'd be interested in hearing from any British long-arm FP users who were shooting before the pistol ban came into effect. Do you prefer the Long-arm over the traditional Free Pistol? If the law was changed to allow all ISSF pistol shooting from tomorrow, would you be removing the rear extenders as soon as QEII signed the legislation into force - or would you leave them as they are? David - do you have any thoughts on this?

I am probably not the best person to ask as I didn't shoot Free Pistol before the ban and I don't shoot the "Longarms" now. There are only 3 or 4 shooters in the UK whose opinion I would take as authoratitive on this, if there is such a thing as an authoratitive opinion, and I haven't discussed it with them.

If all ISSF pistol shooting was allowed from tomorrow then I am pretty sure that we would soon return to the pre-ban extremely low numbers of Free Pistoleers (not that it is particularly high now). I know that many have purchased Longarms just because they are the only ISSF cartridge pistols we can have. They would much prefer to be shooting the Standard, Rapid, Sport and Centre-Fire that they were shooting before.

Yes, the SAM site certainly has had a makeover. I don’t think the UK main importer has anybody on his books looking like her, but I will suggest it when we meet in a couple of weeks!

To the serious matters. I agree with David, as the only show in town, the free pistol has attracted some shooters to this event that may not have chosen it given the choice of 25m ISSF or non-ISSF events for that matter. The numbers shooting FP are slightly higher than pre-ban and I would say about 30% of the owners shoot in at least one of the main open competitions in the calendar (approx 120 pistols).

The “UK long arm” is not actually new in concept as regards using rails to deploy weights front and or rear, in fact I recall shooting a pistol some 20 years ago when I mainly shot rifle that had both front and rear weights not dissimilar to the SAM air pistol.

Given a choice, the permanent attachment of weights is sub-optimal. The convincing metal blocks that attaches the rails on which weights are attached are neutral in location and just add weight to the pistol and positioned just forward of the breach. A small weight to the rear totally neutralises this in terms of balance. Compensators can be added and their impact if undesirable can also be neutralised by positioning the small counter weights to the rear of the pistol. However, the overall weight increases. I have no issue shooting two matches in a day plus finals but I am aware some are not as enthusiastic. Given a choice, I would rather have the same weight system as employed by the SAM air and the FP10 (made by SAM and was sold by Hammerli). Issues of transportation would be a lot simplified. However, given a choice between what we have and not having FP, the choice is simple, we adapt!

I had my Morini grips customised in Switzerland a few months prior to my UK long arm arriving as I shoot right hand left eye. We used a standard CM84e for the grips manufacturer and initial testing. Only when adding the longer compensator do you notice an overall impact and this would be the same with either model! In fact, the UK version provides opportunity for fine tuning this change in balance.

I regularly shoot the UK FP into the 540’s and have had some reasonable results with it. It is early days and a lot of training and commitment is needed to get a decent result out of any of the three good pistols we have to choose from in the UK.