TargetTalk

David Levene wrote:

Pär Hylander wrote:BTW, Its 13 years since I was at Bisley for the Nordic Champs, is the range complex still as big and impressive, or is it partly abandond since your strict handgun laws come?

Some pretty big changes since those Nordics (which were the last ones I shot in).

You may remember that to the left hand side of the main 30 point 50/25m pistol range was a 20 point 25m range. That smaller range has now been demolished and the main 50/25m range has been extended to 50 firing points.

From memory the Free Pistol at that Nordics was shot on a separate 50m rimfire only range. That has now been converted to a 25m range rated up to black powder.

There used to be another separate 25m pistol range (in a dip at the top of the hill). That has been demolished and been replaced by a modern fully equipped shotgun set up.

We now have a large modern building with a 50m rimfire range downstairs and 10m air upstairs. From memory there are a maximum of about 60+ firing points at each range. About half of the firing points at each range are permanently used with electronic targets. Because of the range configuration of the building the rest of the firing points can normally used for other sports. These help finance the shooting activities and can easily be converted back to electronic targets if needed for large meetings.

The building also contains a cafe, offices, 2 shops (1 for shooting), a well equipped gym, meeting rooms, showers, toilets etc.

All in all, the camp area is still just as big, probably more impressive and certainly much tidier than it was in those days.

Really OT in another topic, my fault..., sorry. Starts a new thread about it instead.

As I rember it, there was 2 ranges for 25 m that were used for the Nordics in 1992. I competed as junior and the standard and sportpistol was held at a range where there were a 100 m (?) range for some kind of running target, 100m Deer? I remember that the rifles that was used where VERY loud.... Might this be the main 25 m range?

The RFP was held at another range, the description "in a dip at the top of the hill" corrospond well with my memory. Close nearby there was a range that I think was used for blackpowder shooting that we were allow to fire warm up shots at.

I must say that Bisley is by far the most impressive range complex I have seen!! Its like a village with houses, club houses, some restaurants, shops and so on, a small exhibishion/museum also as I remeber it. And lots of different kind of ranges around the village, incl one for really long range rifle shooting, some 1000 m or so.

BR, Pär

I aplaud your memory.

The pistol range next to the running deer range is called "Melville". That is the one that used to have a smaller pistol range next to it called "Winans" which has now been knocked down. Melville has been extended to 50 points.

The "range in the dip" was called "Cheylesmore" and was a short walk from the pistol "Gallery" range which had wind-back targets (which were used at the Nordics for function testing). Cheylesmore has now been knocked down and is the car park for the new shotgun complex.

Gallery range has been re-named Winans. There used to be a 50m rimfire range which has been converted to 25m and renamed Cheylesmore.

I hope all of that is clear.

You might be interested in the Bisley Camp Map

Aaahh, that map really bring some memorys back! Also the names Cheylesmore and Gallery sounds familiar. Those wind-back targets were exotic to me, I had never seen such before. After that I have seen some similar in Germany but never in Sweden.

Would be nice to see the place again!

BR, Pär

Pär Hylander wrote:Aaahh, that map really bring some memorys back! Also the names Cheylesmore and Gallery sounds familiar. Those wind-back targets were exotic to me, I had never seen such before. After that I have seen some similar in Germany but never in Sweden.

Would be nice to see the place again!

BR, Pär

Par,
As you can see David is much more familiar with the complex, and it's history, than I am. I've only been shooting there for a few years. Sadly I never shot 'real' pistols there although perhaps I'm not as sad as some as I don't know what I've missed. I do now shoot in the impressive Lord Roberts Centre with air and free pistol but it is a moderate journey for me so I don't use the facilities as much as I'd like.

Since you'd like to see the place again, why don't you come over and visit ? You could even time it with of the many competitions held there throughout the year and even compete, you'd probably bump into one or more posters on this forum (and we're not too scarey, honest ;-) ).

Rob.

All this talk begs me to ask, are there any pistol matches that are open to the average shooter at this super looking facitity? I know the laws in the UK are imposing.....but

While we're on the subject, does anyone have experience sandwiching a few matches into a European vacation?? That might be worth traveling
that far for.


Alex

Alex wrote:All this talk begs me to ask, are there any pistol matches that are open to the average shooter at this super looking facitity? I know the laws in the UK are imposing.....but

We are only allowed to shoot matches with air pistol, muzzle loaders or pistols with a barrel length of 300mm+ and an overall length excluding removable accessories of 600mm+ (hence our special versions of free pistols).

The last category excludes centre-fire semi-automatics.

Alex wrote:All this talk begs me to ask, are there any pistol matches that are open to the average shooter at this super looking facitity? I know the laws in the UK are imposing.....but

Alex

The simple answer is yes. Shooting, for example, air pistol there are plenty of matches open to all. Bisley probably hosts an 'open' event, roughly every month. I've just come back from there today (and bumped into David) and I'll be there there at least once a month until probably Oct.

If you do have any specific dates in mind then just ask,

Rob.

Are there some kind of matches for rapid air pistol (for my Fwb C55)?

Pär Hylander wrote:Are there some kind of matches for rapid air pistol (for my Fwb C55)?

Yes, we shoot all the 25M .22 rapid events with air pistol plus a few variations viz;

Rapid fire, Sport (standard handgun, centrfire), standard pistol.

At 10M we have standard - various 'local' interpretations plus the ISSF 10M standard pistol (40 shots at 10M on standard 10M cards). 5 shot falling plate and 10M rapid fire (normally to 10, 8 and 6 secs, on bigger than usual 10M cards).

So the simple answer is there are quite a few possibilities, although few places in the UK do the 25M events (but luckily for you Bisley does).

Rob.

This old thread deserves a revitalization, I feel.

1. Because its contents are on one hand so important, and so nicely condensed. Especially the unique historical conspect offered by David Levene is invaluable, because there is no way it can be gleaned from the accessible online sources on the Web (the sites of NRA-UK, in spite of the richness of its web presence; NSC).
Only now and due to his rich input, I have understood why the Cheylesmore Range (25 metres, used for "gallery rifle", black powder, and cartridge pistol; also intensely used for centrefire sevice pistol, by the Civil Nuclear Constabulary) is at times called "New Cheylesmore Range". So the original 1948 Olympics "Old" Cheylesmore range was situated alesewhere, I understand?

2. It further deserves a revitalization because apparently much has changed. There are two "Section 5 authorized" civilian ranges in the UK now, Cheylesmore being one of them (I think the smallbore ranges in the Lord Roberts National Shooting Centre are not section 5?), and the "Tunnel" in Dorset near Lyme Regis and Charmouth being the second. And Cheylesmore just got installed 2 x 5 electronic targets in one of its sections, as presented in the first 6 minutes of a - very nice !! - NRA video channel clip, available via Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nfhy_C95Eo

Also, "section 5" handgun shooting is growing again, although at a very millipedian speed or slowth, and a couple more authorities for civilian shooters seem to have been issued over the last 5 years. As much as I have hated to say anything positive about British Shooting (notably their abject 2012 fracas), I feel they now really deserve some appreciation and commendation here in this context. [Corollary: yes I know who "they " is - I just preer not to name her at the moment ;-) ] .
The sad exit of Morgan Cook apparently did not harm the gracious MOD collaboration too badly (though I hear the military ranges over the nation have become lesser and lesser available), and the Army even enables some basic and talent squad work (see the British ATSC participants in ISAS 2017 on Germany, several of them merely at county level, but nonetheless they are given a chance to learn and practice and grow - which is excellent). Ian Jack seems to juggle his military beret and his civilian ESSU top hat very nimbly and graciously. ;-)

3. Electronic targets from this or that or that manufacturer, as I hear, also are to be installed in growing numbers on the fullbore rifle ranges (Stickledown and others?), and re-installed or replaced on the Malcolm Cooper 50 metres smallbore Range of the NSRA (I think I had read that the truly trifling sum of 200,000 pounds was discussed, only for this range).

4. And then there is the thorny issue of The Trustees v. The Associations v. The Clubs v. Everybody, considering expiration of the olden land leases and possibly re-renting for a higher or much higher rent. Mucho contencioso...
This issue was also recently phrased by the NRA chair (very astutely in my eyes) as the Battle of the Ancients (Victorian and Edwardian Volunteerism plus Defence of the Nation and the Empire, which is what has erstwhile created, is even today the nominal legal base for the land use, and still today marks the unique character and atmosphere of Bisley) against The Moderns (sportive shooting of the 21st century, almost half of it being Target Rifle, only a smaller part being Service Rifle).

Alexander

Just a couple of points.

The 25m range at Lord Roberts Centre is section 5 approved.

All of the 10m and 50m targets at Lord Roberts are already electronic. It's just that they are getting a bit old now and could do with replacement.

David Levene wrote: The 25m range at Lord Roberts Centre is section 5 approved.

All of the 10m and 50m targets at Lord Roberts are already electronic. It's just that they are getting a bit old now and could do with replacement.

Thank you for the welcome additional information. Prices for electronic targets vary immensely. Intarso (formerly Häring) which we have on our range, was a fat lot cheaper than Meyton, leave alone SIUS. But I do not not know how stuffed or loaded NSRA is. Nor do I know anything about kickbacks (the vile rumour reliably pops up every time SIUS is mentioned...).

I had inferred in the negative because some 25m cartridge competitions were explicitly held on Cheylesmore rather than in Lord Roberts Centre, additionally I was impressed by the NRA TV clip. Thanks sincerely for informing me.

Does this mean there are three (3) civilian "Section 5 approved" ranges now in England and Wales? And what about Scotland, I wonder?

Alexander

The 25m range at LRC only has turning targets. Thats why we hold trials matches on Cheylesmore.

Alexander wrote:This old thread deserves a revitalization, I feel.

That brought back a few memories. I did range duties for the Nordics, with nothing for lunch each day IIRC.

4. And then there is the thorny issue of The Trustees v. The Associations v. The Clubs v. Everybody, considering expiration of the olden land leases and possibly re-renting for a higher or much higher rent. Mucho contencioso...
This issue was also recently phrased by the NRA chair (very astutely in my eyes) as the Battle of the Ancients (Victorian and Edwardian Volunteerism plus Defence of the Nation and the Empire, which is what has erstwhile created, is even today the nominal legal base for the land use, and still today marks the unique character and atmosphere of Bisley) against The Moderns (sportive shooting of the 21st century, almost half of it being Target Rifle, only a smaller part being Service Rifle).

Is that what did for the British Pistol Club?

There's been no real service rifle since 1987, when SLRs were banned, I thought.

All in all, I'm still glad I moved to Australia and am able to continue pistol shooting - for now at least.

JamesH wrote: Is that what did for the British Pistol Club?

I'm not sure about "did for" James.

Yes we lost our clubhouse, but I'm pleased to say we are still running, strongly.

Losing the clubhouse has meant that we've lost somewhere to display the honours boards, but IMHO that is one of the few down sides.

With most of the shooting being based at the Lord Roberts Centre, and the improved catering facilities there, fewer people were using the clubhouse. It was an expensive luxury.

Fair enough, still its a bit of history gone.

JamesH wrote:

Alexander wrote:This old thread deserves a revitalization, I feel.
(...)
4. And then there is the thorny issue of The Trustees v. The Associations v. The Clubs v. Everybody, considering expiration of the olden land leases and possibly re-renting for a higher or much higher rent. (...)

Is that what did for the British Pistol Club?

Hm. The clubhouse of the British Pistol Club, that is a question that David Levene would be most competent to answer expertly, and certainly not I.

Like all the clubhouses (the issue was contended w.r.t the Artists Rifles clubhouse, but has been expensively resolved via arbitration), it would legally belong to the NRA, not to its user and builder the BPC - if you read the NRA AGM minutes, you would wonder why some clubs apparently have not cared for the legal base of their dwellings.

Whether the BPC was or is in any other way affected by the ideas of their landlord ( = The Trustees) with regard to adequate rents and necessary rent raises, I have no idea. If it weren't for a covenant being triggered, as in one other case (*wink* *wink*), or for a massive rent raise, the BPC could be safer in its spot than the NSRA today is.

The [edited: former] BPC club house is - interestingly enough - not textually listed on any Bisley Camp map in the NRA-UK website... just from the aerial view, I would wager a guess that this here
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=51.31 ... rch=Bisley
be the spot of the BPC clubhouse - but hey, I have not yet been there and hence might be totally mistaken and lost. ;-)

Alexander

Alexander wrote:The BPC club house is - interestingly enough - not textually listed on any Bisley Camp map in the NRA-UK website, and location indicators in other web spots guide the curious astray, in best English Maze style... just from the aerial view, I would wager a guess that this here
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=de&lat=51.31 ... rch=Bisley
be the spot of the BPC clubhouse - but hey, I have not yet been there and hence might be totally mistaken and lost. ;-)

That's the one. It's now known as Wimbledon House and used by the NRA to run courses in.

Alexander wrote:Thank you for the welcome additional information. Prices for electronic targets vary immensely. Intarso (formerly Häring) which we have on our range, was a fat lot cheaper than Meyton, leave alone SIUS. But I do not not know how stuffed or loaded NSRA is. Nor do I know anything about kickbacks (the vile rumour reliably pops up every time SIUS is mentioned...).

The NSRA is basically broke. They certainly can't afford £200k for new electronic targets to refurb the 50metre range (the 10m is okay - although the targets are the same age they've obviously been in door and have not suffered 15 years of being battered by the weather).

However, they HAVE to get new targets. Every time you shoot there more lanes are either closed, or they are keeping more and more hospital bays open on the expectation that the "working" targets will break mid-shoot. It's certainly getting towards the point where you wonder whether they'll have enough lanes to sensibly run an event like the British 50M Championships without needing a half-dozen qualification details!

Interestingly this year, Meyton were at the British 10M Air Open providing a finals range (as there is no dedicated finals range and you would otherwise have to hold the final on the main range - which causes scheduling problems and reduces the capacity/number of entries).

Eley (yes, the Tenex people) are now the UK distributor for Meyton, and are looking to develop "21st century" shooting in the UK, and they would obviously like that to involve lots of Meyton targets! So the speculation is the NSRA are going to get their range.

How that is to be funded? Well there are lots of rumours.

- SportEngland has an "Inspired Facilities" fund, specifically designed for big six-figure projects, which could contribute some double-digit percentage of the costs.

- Potentially Eley will be able to set up a finance deal for the NSRA to buy them over 5+ years instead of having to find £200k up front as cash.

- Potentially Eley and Meyton will do a sponsorship deal and give them some of the targets (effectively a hefty discount, buy-20-get-20-free) on the basis that there aren't many Meytons in the UK (dominated by Sius and Megalink. The only places I've shot Meyton are Hannover and Gibraltar), and they'll do that deal to make the "National 50M Range" Meyton on the grounds of marketing and introducing the brand to shooters in order to drive sales to clubs.

I don't know if any or all of them have any truth whatsoever - but the targets need to come from somewhere or it's going to go from being a horrible range to being a lawn with no targets!

Hemmers wrote: - Potentially Eley and Meyton will do a sponsorship deal and give them some of the targets (effectively a hefty discount, buy-20-get-20-free) on the basis that there aren't many Meytons in the UK (dominated by Sius and Megalink. The only places I've shot Meyton are Hannover and Gibraltar)

It is always wise to look out beyond one's own borders. Germany for example, which is not a small shooting nation, and probably has the world's highest density of electronic targets, mostly uses (in purely alphabetic order) DISAG, Haering/Intarso, Meyton.
Whereas Ariosoren, Kongsberg, Megalink and SIUS are almost unheard of here.

Alexander