TargetTalk

Imagine you are playing a video game. With one hand on the mouse, you have to hold a sighting marker on an almost motionless, but still always gently moving target. With the other hand, you have to fire a shot with the space bar.

You can choose two ways of doing this:

1) You can chase the target around and press the bar when the constantly shifitg coincidence of sight and object seems perfect.

2) You can choose a time of 1, 2, 3, or more seconds of delay for the release. In this case, you just hit the space bar, and then put
all of your mental energy into aligning the sight, knowing that come hell or high water, the shot is going to break at a definte point in the future.

Which would you choose?

It seems to me, that the constant squeeze method is a strategy for converting a tool which is meant to operate in the first manner (a gun with a trigger), into a tool which operates in the second (an automatically timed delay release).

Seeing as constant squeeze seems in contradiction with the very nature of a hair-trigger gun, why would anybody practice it? Unless of course collective experience shows that performance improves markedly when you do...

A missing piece of hte puzzle here seems to be the following fact (put quotes around the word fact if that helps):

There is a finite and nonzero amount of time delay between when you "think" you are commanding the shot to be released and when the shot is actully released. And another delay between when the mechanical side of the system is actuated and the shot leaves the muzzle.

So if you command the shot to be released when conditions are perfect, by the time the projectile clears the muzzle they won't be perfect any more.

So obviously- we must somehow command the release of the shot "just before" the conditions get perfect.

Do (should) the sights drive the trigger or does the trigger drive the sights during this MoT?

How does a baseball player hit a fastball, when the bat must be swung before the ball is even in flight?

Redux, again.

Not to be too "cerebral" but if you could train your shot release to be

1) absolutely consistent (in terms of time) from moment of initiation to release of shot; and
2) absolutely smooth in that the sights are not disturbed

then would not the amount of time delay be consistent (predictable)?

How would this help?

Conscious: Alignment
Semi-Autonomic: Settle
Subconscious: Trigger

vs.

Conscious: Trigger
Semi-Autonomic: Settle
Subconscious: Alignment

?????

The above statement is just another one of Steves " straw man " posts or mis posts as the case may be. To my knowledge no one has ever suggested any such bizzare approach to delivering a shot on target. Sub concious stght allignment indeed !!!! I usually dont bother to respond to Steves delibret distortions but this could mislead a begining shooter into troubled waters from which he / she might never recover. How many times have I repeated the admonition that the last .final, most important act of firing the shot is total concentration and eye focus on the issue of perfecting sight allignment while the postol fires . Follow through is no more than the reaction time lapse that occurs with a surprise shot.The whole idea is to cause the pistol to fire during minimun arc of movement with perfect sight allignment. Good Shooting Bill Horton

gordonfriesen wrote: In my case, the more I shoot against the bull, the moe I try to fiddle with the right instant of release and the worse my group gets. I have a blank target set up in the next postion beside mine. I fire a string or two into the blank card and then come back to the bull. I try to shoot exactly as I did at the blank, which is to say I just ignore the possibility of a fine tune release, and the group generally comes back together.

At any rate, leaving aside the question of whether Bill's method is better than Steve's, the blank target drill trains you for the constant squeeze, not the optimal moment.

I have found that the mental exercise of ignoring the bull/not fine tuning the release, provides me with better training. If you want to train yourself to ignore the bull, then shouldn't you have a bull to ignore?
I understand the value of training on the elements, but right now I feel I get more value from trying to have a smooth continuous process.

I still find it very difficult to apply the 'start the trigger first' approach to AP and FP triggers. I was reminded of this last evening at my 22 BE league match. My two stage Pardini SPE trigger is set up with a very nice rolling second stage, and it feels so natural to put the dot on the bull, start the trigger, keep it moving, and just concentrate on keeping the dot on the bull. Whenever I try this with my AP I end up thinking about where I am holding :-(

You cannot dance a jig and thread a needle at the same time.

^^^That's an analogy ^^^

That is if even a fraction of your mind is on something besides the shot, you are going to miss.

I do recall very well the best target I ever fired. Keys to it was a few things:
1) I did not scope the target between shots
2) Lighting was ideal on the sight. I could really really see it and stay on it.
3) I was absolutely determined to hold alignment AND have that "surprise" shot each time.

Yes in number 3, TWO things were in my mind. I swear that. I was totally aware of pressure on the trigger AND the alignment at the sight. That was a rare combination of things.

So we don't need to talk about "ignore the bull". We should do this:
"Pay absolute attention to the sight."

jackh wrote: So we don't need to talk about "ignore the bull". We should do this:
"Pay absolute attention to the sight."

Good point

I still Don't know what a metric is, But how about another bit of word mongering. Try behavioral skill set. That should encompass the act of firing the shot adequately to cover most of the basics processes necessary to control the shot delivery. Now we can possibly move on to the seperate steps and begin to descuss how to blend them into the flow that produces the best results. Good Shooting Bill Horton

I shot today. Practice. I focused on the front sight. Trigger pull was initiated when sight alignment was good. I brought the gun down when I held too long and lost sight alignment. After I completed 60 rounds I kept the 1st repair center to analyze the hits. More shots were high than low. What applicable metrics can/should I apply to this scenario?

Please consider the sequence of staging above the bull, start lowering the pistol toward your aiming area , start a steadily increasing pressure on the trigger that never stops moving. Settle into the aiming area and relax to your best stillness . F ocus vision on the front sight and concentrate all your thoughts on perfecting sight allignment. Thust you hold and the pistol will fire with a surprise shot within your ability to hold. And to address your orriginal question, I would come down two clicks on the rear sight. Good Shooting Bill HOrton

2650 Plus wrote:Please consider the sequence of staging above the bull, start lowering the pistol toward your aiming area , start a steadily increasing pressure on the trigger that never stops moving. Settle into the aiming area and . F ocus vision on the front sight and concentrate all your thoughts on perfecting sight allignment. Thust you hold and the pistol will fire with a surprise shot within your ability to hold. And to address your orriginal question, I would come down two clicks on the rear sight. Good Shooting Bill HOrton

Bill, please expand on your "relax to your best stillness".

I find my best alignment and stillness when I firm up, definitely not relaxed.

For Jack H. I also use some muscle tension to hold the pistol as still as I can. what I am sugesting is based on earlier experiments I did with concerable muscle tension. I found that tensing muscles that had nothing to do with holding the pistol still was actually detrimental to a steady hold plus I tired to quickly in a one day 2700 Match. The diafram is paticulary sensitive and should be as relaxed as posible. Tensed muscles are very hard to hold the same tensness through out the shot , sustained fire strings and through out the days shooting. I learned relaxation shooting the rifle and the technique followed over to pistol. I hope this explanation helps clear up what I was attempting to convey. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Shadow:

You ask the right question- but from what you say it is impossible to evaluate any behaviors or associated metrics.

Refer to the attached data sheet. To use, you must fire the shot (or dry fire) and evaluate your performance on the critical elements (columns).

The form was designed to be used in conjunction with the Rika/Scatt/Noptel system (see columns for quality of hold and trigger) however you can use the form simply by modifying what you use for those columns.

The purpose of using the form is actually to force you to focus on the behaviors you perform and observe- evaluating those behaviors forces you to pay close attention to them- having a record od your performance against those behaviors (metrics) is quite secondary.

Once you get comfortable with using the form, you can begin to trust yoiur evaluations.

At that point, you can begin to use the form for diagnostics- it will help you identify yoiur weakest performance areas, which yoiu can then work on the following week.

(p.s. please don't try to evaluate each area for every shot!)

Oh each element is evaluated 1 (really sucked), 2 or 3 (per the legend at the bottom; if using Scatt/Rika/Noptel other evaluation options can be used).

Leave null if not observed. Enter 0 if it really, really sucked.

Steve there is some sense in your lists on the bottom of the chart. Like (my words)

assess pattern and settle speed

did my focus wander

did my alignment break from physical or mental

how aware-conscious was I on the trigger

was the trigger quick, smoothe, and not affect alignment

did I maintain focus and hold through the release and more

If I saw any break from ideal above, did I fight or put it down

I like the worksheet as a simple way to force myself to honestly evaluate the shot. Though, I wouldn't put mistakes in writing at the bottom, I want just the good behaviors. I can evaluate how close I was to the ideal. Also I might modify it to make fill in the blank circles because I am pretty hopeless writing with my left hand.

This thread and your others, Steve, have been eye opening to me. I realized that even though I have a shot plan, I have not been evaluating each step individually and it did not include the mental process I need. I have found that I need a "script" to say as I go through the process to keep my mind from wandering. I am far too easily distracted and I discovered that I was far to willing to accept it and take the shot anyway, even though I am not totally focussed on the task at hand. Thanks for helping me make the discovery.

They say I have ADD, but I d... Oh look a butterfly!

Steve Turner

SteveT:

I have a "Focus Card" (at home; sorry- I'm on the road) that could be useful. I'll post it when I get back. Also I have a worksheet I used to help me "burn in" my current shot plan (also to be posted later).

I can related to the ADD (+OCD; go figure!) issues

What is a metric ?? Good Shooting Bill Horton

I think Steve it applying bean counting techniques to the shot process. Something like the bobsled going down the track and counting the bumps into the sidewall.

The term comes from something that you meter (measure) thus it makes that a metric.