TargetTalk

rloebler wrote:

David Levene wrote:

rloebler wrote:I knocked up a quick Air Pistol flag this morning at work. It's made from a stainless steel two-way radio antenna covered in red heat shrink. Not sure if it will suffice. What do you think ? The buffer area at the front prevents the hard metal rod pushing up against the pellet loading ram. Being solid it passes through compensators with ease.

Under the latest ISSF Interpretations, "Safety flags must be of a bright color that Range Officers can easily see at a distance. Fluorescent orange or a similar bright color is recommended.?

Is it flexible enough so that it can come outside of the gun at both ends (which is the clear intention)?

I read that bit about extending outside the gun about five minutes after I posted the pic. The rod is stiff and thus could not bend to extend outside of the breach area. On that basis it's probably not good enough.

Personallyi am still rather ticked off at the new rule and feel that your rod should be accepted, as long as the "flag" can be see by the RO, who cares if it doesnt come all theway out of the breach!!!

If a rod has gone through the whole length of the barrel, should be sufficient!!! Too many people on a power trip making life hard for people who enjoy their sport!!!

Cheers
Brad

brakarzac wrote:

rloebler wrote:

David Levene wrote:

rloebler wrote:I knocked up a quick Air Pistol flag this morning at work. It's made from a stainless steel two-way radio antenna covered in red heat shrink. Not sure if it will suffice. What do you think ? The buffer area at the front prevents the hard metal rod pushing up against the pellet loading ram. Being solid it passes through compensators with ease.

Under the latest ISSF Interpretations, "Safety flags must be of a bright color that Range Officers can easily see at a distance. Fluorescent orange or a similar bright color is recommended.?

Is it flexible enough so that it can come outside of the gun at both ends (which is the clear intention)?

I read that bit about extending outside the gun about five minutes after I posted the pic. The rod is stiff and thus could not bend to extend outside of the breach area. On that basis it's probably not good enough.

Personallyi am still rather ticked off at the new rule and feel that your rod should be accepted, as long as the "flag" can be see by the RO, who cares if it doesnt come all theway out of the breach!!!

If a rod has gone through the whole length of the barrel, should be sufficient!!! Too many people on a power trip making life hard for people who enjoy their sport!!!

Cheers
Brad

One of the guys at work has just loaned me some fluorescent fibre optic cable which I think would work well. It comes in multiple thicknesses, is flexible but unlike weed eater line is essentially straight and thus easier to feed into the barrel. As a bonus the cable absorbs light and emits it from the ends as if there was a light inside - This makes your safety flag glow and look pretty :-)

Looks like the reality is a bit different to the intentions at this early stage.
Grzegorz has just posted some observations over in the Shooters Lounge from the recent Grand Prix in Wroclaw, Poland.

Quote:
International Competitions “Grand Prix of Wroclaw” (Poland) is over. As a TD I have collected a few questions/remarks.

1. Safety flags work well for air rifles, but for some air pistols there were problems - compensators cause that a safety flag is blocked in the barrel and shooters fight desperately to fix the problem :-)

2. In a 50m rifle prone 4/8 finalists forgot to use flags before a presentation.

Thanks to Grzegorz for his observations and soory for any speeling eroorrs - my Polish is not so god n mi Enlgihs is enve wores!
Gerry

rloebler wrote: One of the guys at work has just loaned me some fluorescent fibre optic cable which I think would work well. It comes in multiple thicknesses, is flexible but unlike weed eater line is essentially straight and thus easier to feed into the barrel. As a bonus the cable absorbs light and emits it from the ends as if there was a light inside - This makes your safety flag glow and look pretty :-)

That could work very nicely! Here a link to possible option from a US dealer:

http://www.fiberopticproducts.com/store ... cts_id=846

The stuff is a lot more expensive than weed whacker line, but if it's straight, that could save a lot of grief. I help coach a team where we will need dozens of these, and I've been working on an oven to anneal & straighten the regular nylon line.

Gwhite wrote:

rloebler wrote: One of the guys at work has just loaned me some fluorescent fibre optic cable which I think would work well. It comes in multiple thicknesses, is flexible but unlike weed eater line is essentially straight and thus easier to feed into the barrel. As a bonus the cable absorbs light and emits it from the ends as if there was a light inside - This makes your safety flag glow and look pretty :-)

That could work very nicely! Here a link to possible option from a US dealer:

http://www.fiberopticproducts.com/store ... cts_id=846

The stuff is a lot more expensive than weed whacker line, but if it's straight, that could save a lot of grief. I help coach a team where we will need dozens of these, and I've been working on an oven to anneal & straighten the regular nylon line.

Straight is fine until you try and get it into the breech. I'll settle for 100 x cheaper strimmer cord. For my pistol with a compensator the cord goes in from the muzzle end.

Rob.

I sent an email to the fiber optic folks. The fibers are made either from acrylic or polystyrene. Both are more brittle than nylon, and the polystyrene probably won't play well with many gun oils & solvents.

Gwhite wrote:I sent an email to the fiber optic folks. The fibers are made either from acrylic or polystyrene. Both are more brittle than nylon, and the polystyrene probably won't play well with many gun oils & solvents.

I ordered a few strands and will post some pics and let you know what I think when it arrives.

Hi guys, what I really don't understand is why the safety flag must extend through all the length of the barrel only in air pistol and air rifle and with .22 rifle or pistol it only must have 10 or 15 cm and be inserted in the chamber...

And what about .32 / .38 / 9mm and others? Do they not need safety flags?

Does the ISSF think that air rifle or pistol are more dangerous than .22/.32/.38/9mm guns? :(

Regards,
MC

mc4 wrote:Hi guys, what I really don't understand is why the safety flag must extend through all the length of the barrel only in air pistol and air rifle and with .22 rifle or pistol it only must have 10 or 15 cm and be inserted in the chamber...

And what about .32 / .38 / 9mm and others? Do they not need safety flags?

Does the ISSF think that air rifle or pistol are more dangerous than .22/.32/.38/9mm guns? :(

Regards,
MC

6.2.2.2 Safety flags must be inserted in all rifles, pistols and semi-automatic shotguns at all times other than during authorized dry firing or live firing on a firing point. The purpose of safety flags is to visibly demonstrate when gun actions are open and guns are unloaded. To demonstrate that air rifles and air pistols are unloaded, the safety flag must be long enough to extend through the full length of the barrel.

.22 is not mentioned as such - i.e. other than air rifles and pistols (which includes CF), an approved clear chamber suffices.
Most 10m guns will have the pellet well inside the action after it is closed, making it virtually impossible to visually check that there is no pellet; therefore 'full length of the barrel'

mc4 wrote:Hi guys, what I really don't understand is why the safety flag must extend through all the length of the barrel only in air pistol and air rifle and with .22 rifle or pistol it only must have 10 or 15 cm and be inserted in the chamber...

And what about .32 / .38 / 9mm and others? Do they not need safety flags?

Does the ISSF think that air rifle or pistol are more dangerous than .22/.32/.38/9mm guns? :(

Regards,
MC

It's a mess to be sure and from what I've been told, it's all derived from one mans crusade. I had a very interesting chat with someone very high in the ISSF and even he had no practical input into the rules. As he stated a CBI indicator is fine but it will affect the lead fouling in the barrel and affect accuracy.

Also the 22 flags have been tested following an incident where a rifle fired with the flag in - the solid flags can fit in with a live round in place. They had done some tests and managed to replicate the finding. I don't recall if the ISSF states what type of breach flag should be used in rifles etc but the hard flags are less good than the flag on a stalk type from that perspective.

Rob.

mc4 wrote:Hi guys, what I really don't understand is why the safety flag must extend through all the length of the barrel only in air pistol and air rifle and with .22 rifle or pistol it only must have 10 or 15 cm and be inserted in the chamber...

For cartridge guns, it's sufficient to show that there's no cartridge present, hence no propelling gas. For airguns, the propelling gas is provided by the gun itself, so a bullet lodged halfway through the barrel leaves you with, for all intents and purposes, a loaded gun. (Of course, a bullet lodged halfway through a cartridge gun is a big problem. But it's not really a safety problem.) I find this logic perfectly sound.

Joakim wrote:

mc4 wrote:Hi guys, what I really don't understand is why the safety flag must extend through all the length of the barrel only in air pistol and air rifle and with .22 rifle or pistol it only must have 10 or 15 cm and be inserted in the chamber...

For cartridge guns, it's sufficient to show that there's no cartridge present, hence no propelling gas. For airguns, the propelling gas is provided by the gun itself, so a bullet lodged halfway through the barrel leaves you with, for all intents and purposes, a loaded gun. (Of course, a bullet lodged halfway through a cartridge gun is a big problem. But it's not really a safety problem.) I find this logic perfectly sound.

A pellet lodged halfway down the barrel is totally safe with the breach open, and of course the gun still pointing in a safe direction. No one is questioning the facts of what happens when it's cocked and the breach is closed.

The problem comes in how far you need to push it to make it 'safer'. One could make an equal argument for removing the cylinder at the same time. That's where the power comes from so remove it and make it 'even safer'.

The issue people have is that shooting has never been unsafe so why the need to go the extra 9 yards ?

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote: The issue people have is that shooting has never been unsafe so why the need to go the extra 9 yards ?
Rob.

It's the same (IMHO stupid) concept as the gun-banners' belief, that manipulating or removing hardware is a substitute for the user's thoughtful behavior. The gun's real safety is located between the operator's ears.

It seems to me that, if an increased level of safety is truly required, it could be obtained by making the penalty for unsafe behavior sufficiently painful that shooters would be sufficiently careful. No complicated hardware needed.

FredB

RobStubbs wrote:

mc4 wrote:...Also the 22 flags have been tested following an incident where a rifle fired with the flag in - the solid flags can fit in with a live round in place. They had done some tests and managed to replicate the finding...

Before this becomes a much-quoted internet factoid, as I understand "and guns are unloaded" in 6.2.2.2 requires that the flag be inserted into the chamber - how so with a live round in the chamber?

Spencer wrote:

RobStubbs wrote:

mc4 wrote:...Also the 22 flags have been tested following an incident where a rifle fired with the flag in - the solid flags can fit in with a live round in place. They had done some tests and managed to replicate the finding...

Before this becomes a much-quoted internet factoid, as I understand "and guns are unloaded" in 6.2.2.2 requires that the flag be inserted into the chamber - how so with a live round in the chamber?

I think it's pretty obvious Spencer, but let me elaborate. Someone obviously did not make sure there was no round in the chamber, and someone else did not check the flag was physically inserted in the chamber. There is also no mention in 6.2.2.2 of the flag having to be in the chamber. It's obviously the intention but it is not written down anywhere in the rule.

In fact I have never seen an RO check the chamber of a .22 rifle. It is presumed that if a flag is visible in the breach then it is also in the chamber. But that clearly isnt the case, and certainly wasn't the case in the incident referred to.

But don't take my word for it the ISSF conducted these tests so ask them - Dave Parish was the gentleman from the UK involved and he went into some detail on the tests. I'm sure he'll be happy to discuss with you.

Rob.

How do you get a flag and a round into the chamber and get the breach to close? That must be one sloppy chamber. Also for it to go off it required the breach to be closed and someone to pull the trigger.

Richard H wrote:How do you get a flag and a round into the chamber and get the breach to close? That must be one sloppy chamber. Also for it to go off it required the breach to be closed and someone to pull the trigger.

You don't. The breach doesn't need to close. The hard flag pressed on the case rim which was pressed by the bolt. No idea how it managed to fire but it did and as I mentioned the ISSF reproduced in a test environment.

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote:

Richard H wrote:How do you get a flag and a round into the chamber and get the breach to close? That must be one sloppy chamber. Also for it to go off it required the breach to be closed and someone to pull the trigger.

You don't. The breach doesn't need to close. The hard flag pressed on the case rim which was pressed by the bolt. No idea how it managed to fire but it did and as I mentioned the ISSF reproduced in a test environment.

Rob.

With a .22 cartridge, I find that extremely hard to believe.
Links????

I know of no links but like I said the ISSF conducted a test and were able to reproduce the incident. All I can suggest is you contact them.

Rob.