TargetTalk

RobStubbs wrote: Really ? If you interfere with the targets in any way they will not be re-scored and that includes gauging them. Scoring errors are normally very rare and in my experience are typically arithmetic errors rather than actual gauging errors, but they do ocassionally happen.

I didn't suggest interfering with targets. No penetrating gauges, just the 'Eagle Eye' type or a simple magnifying glass. In the three competitions I've shot in so far, all controlled to ISSF standards by qualified volunteers, the bundled targets have been handed to competitors after scoring to check and sign off on or protest if necessary. I've found 4 obvious mis-acored shots, at least 1 in each competition (in a total of 420 scored shots). Each case was plain enough without a device, just a scorer getting distracted or something, but it seems basic to bring a non-destructive scoring card at least to enable a proper inspection should a near-the-line shot be difficult to see clearly. Each of my reported errors was amended in my scores, giving me a total of 6 points I'd otherwise have lost unjustly. No one is perfect, that's why we check after scoring.

RobStubbs wrote:

Gerard wrote:An optical scoring device such as judges use might be good thing for checking targets after they're scored, as you'll want to be sure before lodging any mis-scored target complaints. It happens a fair bit.

Really ? If you interfere with the targets in any way they will not be re-scored and that includes gauging them. Scoring errors are normally very rare and in my experience are typically arithmetic errors rather than actual gauging errors, but they do ocassionally happen.

Just wear normal clothing, there is nothing specific. The only thing not to wear is military style clothing i.e. don't go dressed in camo gear (unless you are a serving soldier). In the UK that is the only thing I've seen specified not to wear.

Rob.

Thank you Rob for pointing attention to this issue. More importantly, it will interfere with the mind of the athlete and create an additional distraction of paying attention to real importance to the process of performance and not to the score.

Russ wrote: Thank you Rob for pointing attention to this issue. More importantly, it will interfere with the mind of the athlete and create an additional distraction of paying attention to real importance to the process of performance and not to the score.

An excellent point Russ, but perhaps not relevant, as I was speaking of assessing scoring results after the match has been shot and scored. And scoring is, after the shooting is done, rather relevant. At the BC Provincial Championship at Kamloops this past June my targets were mis-acored, deducting 2 points from my result, leaving me in third place. Checking and finding this descrepancy and reporting it and having it officially confirmed moved me into second place, getting me a silver medal. Not hugely important in the greater scheme of things, bit it rounded out my medals to bronze, silver, and gold, something my young son appreciated.

Gerard wrote:Checking and finding this descrepancy and reporting it and having it officially confirmed moved me into second place, getting me a silver medal

Remember that, even if you put in a formal protest, under ISSF rules the shooter is not allowed to touch targets that have been scored in a classification office.

David Levene wrote:Remember that, even if you put in a formal protest, under ISSF rules the shooter is not allowed to touch targets that have been scored in a classification office.

Well now, that's interesting. I'm going to have to speak with the person responsible for officiating at our competitions as she's got it set up so ALL shooters can and do check over their targets before signing off on the scores... If she's ignoring a specific ISSF rule, that'll have to be remedied, as she's also running the training program for match officials around here.

Nothing wrong with double checking your scores.

Btw the 46m is working great ....a billion times better than the Ruger Mark 1 Air pistol I was using.

It's not a question of wrong, rather whether touching the scored targets is in violation of an ISSF rule. I'm not enough familiar with all the rules to be certain of what David Levene is saying. Searching the latest PDF of the rules for 'checking' and 'targets' I can't find any comment relevant... but might easily have missed something.

6.15.4.3.2 When paper targets are used and scored in the Classification
Office, the team official or shooter has the right to see theprotested shot hole(s) but is not permitted to touch the target(s).

As the BC Provincial Championship at Kamloops is not an official ISSF event, the organisers can allow what they like, including letting the shooters check their own targets I suppose.

I realise that this is taking the original poster's subject off to one side rather far... but now I'm intrigued David. How can these rules be reconciled with situatons where an obviously mis-counted score on a target is evident - ie: an 8 is scored, but the hole is plainly in the 10 ring, as in the official was not paying due attention when recording the score. How could the competitor/team representative even know that such was the case, if a the targets cannot be handled? Easy enough in the case of electronic monitoring where the screen is there to see, but in local matches using 2 shots per paper target, where the targets are collected every 10 targets then scored off the line out of sight of shooters/reps then stored stacked with a rubber band around them... how is anyone able to check visually without touching the targets? Here are the relevant rules, which to me seem to me not to make a lot of sense in this context:


6.15.4 Scoring Protests Decisions by the Classification Jury on the value or the number of shots on a target are final and may not be appealed.

6.15.4.3.1 When using paper targets, a shooter or team official who considers that a shot was scored or recorded incorrectly may protest that score, except that decisions made regarding the value of shots by using gauges are final and cannot be protested. Scoring protests may only be made on scores which have been decided without using a gauge or when incorrect entries in the result list or score card appear to have been made. The protest fee becomes payable.

6.15.4.3.2 When paper targets are used and scored in the Classification Office, the team official or shooter has the right to see the protested shot hole(s) but is not permitted to touch the target(s).

That last especially, the one you quoted - how is this at all possible? Are the officials supposed to lay out all the paper targets for visual inspection? That could become cumbersome in a match with dozens of shooters!

And in an aside, this little beauty would have served me well at my last match. The head official twice interrupted me, once with a tap on the shoulder, advising that I should be sure to be "behind the line" with my toe. Firstly there was no line; someone forgot to put one on the floor so we had to guess from the bench edge way up above the floor. Secondly, my toe was at minimum 15mm behind that line. I suggested she get a laser pointer and run it down the floor from the end to check, and leave me alone while I was shooting unless she had a real complaint. Seems she was busy training someone during the match and thought to make a bit of a show for him. I was angry, and it didn't help my concentration at all.

6.15.2.3 a shooter was impeded or disturbed by other shooter(s), competition official(s), spectator(s), member(s) of the media or other person(s) or cause(s);

j-team wrote:As the BC Provincial Championship at Kamloops is not an official ISSF event, the organisers can allow what they like, including letting the shooters check their own targets I suppose.

Well yeah. Same for the fall and spring matches in Richmond, BC, which follow a 3-round, or 180 shot match format over 2 days. But as the officials at each of these events have emphasized, they are following ISSF regulations - or so they say. I see other areas where perhaps this isn't the case... such as their fee of $2 per complaint pending judgement, where in the ISSF rules it states 25 Euro.

Gerard wrote:Firstly there was no line; someone forgot to put one on the floor so we had to guess from the bench edge way up above the floor. Secondly, my toe was at minimum 15mm behind that line.

Don't forget that the edge of the table should be 100mm forward of the line; rule 6.3.15.1.1

Aren't the rules fun (well I think they are).

Well considering that I've yet to see a laser or any sort of surveying equipment used in setting up matches, who knows exactly whether it's even 10 metres? From that rule I could easily have been shooting from 100mm closer to the target than rules allow, but I've no way of knowing. I think the rules are 'fun' if they're followed by officials and shooters alike, but when there's a discrepancy or three the fun starts to fade.

Gerard wrote:Well considering that I've yet to see a laser or any sort of surveying equipment used in setting up matches, who knows exactly whether it's even 10 metres?

Considering it's 10m +/- 50mm, even the most basic measuring tape should suffice.

So I should bring a tape with me to matches? Seems an excellent plan, if my mission is to get on the bad side of officials. And then there are Russ' admonitions regarding maintaining focus on performance, something which might become quite a challenge should one decide to go around before a match with the ISSF rules in one hand, tape in the other.

Gerard wrote: And then there are Russ' admonitions regarding maintaining focus on performance, something which might become quite a challenge should one decide to go around before a match with the ISSF rules in one hand, tape in the other.

Now, who is the troll ?

Just saying...

Clarence

I was in earnest Clarence. I respect and value input such as what Russ said about distractions, and was recalling it in the above comment. Take it as you like I guess, bit no trolling was intended.

Gerard wrote:I was in earnest Clarence. I respect and value input such as what Russ said about distractions, and was recalling it in the above comment. Take it as you like I guess, bit no trolling was intended.

If you say so.
Just trying to keep things civil around here.
I am not a moderator, but it seems to me if this forum needs one, it is sad.

Just saying...

Clarence

Gerard wrote:So I should bring a tape with me to matches?

No, that's not what you're there for. That's the job of the meeting organisers, the Technical Delegate and the Discipline Jury.

If you're really looking for something to take your mind of what you're there for, can I suggest reading a copy of the rules. ;-)

Rule 6.1.4 ;-)