TargetTalk

Here are some targets that we all shot this weekend at the range.



Pardini SP New .22 LR - Practice Target - 2009-04-18 - 1






Pardini SP New .22 LR - Practice Target - 2009-04-18 - 2






Pardini SP New .22 LR - Practice Target - 2009-04-18 - 3






Pardini SP New .22 LR - Practice Target - 2009-04-18 - 4






Pardini SP New .22 LR - Practice Target - 2009-04-18 - 5






Pardini SP New .22 LR - Practice Target - 2009-04-18 - 6






Pardini SP New .22 LR - Practice Target - 2009-04-18 - 7

After shooting 100-rounds through the pistol without any problem I experienced a stove-pipe failure with a case sticking out sideways while another one was half-way inserted into the chamber. Upon closer inspection I noticed that the either extractor was missing from the bolt.

After a few minutes searching the floor with my trusty flashlight I luckily found the extractor and spring about 4 feet forward of the shooting spot on the floor. I disassembled the gun and noticed that the Extractor Locking Pin part number 709 was half-way out of the bolt. I replaced the extractor and spring and moved the pin back in. Then we used a brass gunsmith's hammer to push the pin all the way into the bolt. I fired 30-more rounds after that without any problem.

Today when I disassembled the gun again to inspect the pin it moved up about 1 mm out of the hole again. I presume that this is going to become a reoccuring if it is not fixed. There are a few different ways of dealing with a loose pin but I will contact Larry regarding how to solve this issue the best way.

Otherwise than this issue, the pistol shoots like a dream and I love the balance and accuracy of it. I'll write more about it when I get another chance.



Pardini SP New .22 LR - Bolt with Extractor and Pin

No direct offense to Larry, but can this gun be had without the "Larry's Guns" lettering. Is that lettering in permanent paint???

Lammy1000 wrote:No direct offense to Larry, but can this gun be had without the "Larry's Guns" lettering. Is that lettering in permanent paint???

The law requires that the importer put his name permanently on the gun. Given all the lettering put on by Pardini at the factory, Larry's lettering seems pretty reasonable.

Jack - what is the point you are trying to make with all those awful 50' target pictures? Looks like you have a lot of work in front of you, even with a red dot. My suggestion is to master the gun with iron sights, not use the red dot scope as a crutch.

Fred Mannis wrote:Jack - what is the point you are trying to make with all those awful 50' target pictures? Looks like you have a lot of work in front of you, even with a red dot. My suggestion is to master the gun with iron sights, not use the red dot scope as a crutch.

Practice Targets

Those targets are not meant to impress and we certainly were not shooting them for any kind of accuracy show-off. Those are just targets that a bunch of folks shot that day at the range and I wanted to post them up for people to see how this gun handles for all of the people that shot it. These are also all of the targets from that day by everyone who shot the gun so there was no cherry picking involved. These targets are just for show of the gun that day and they certainly do not represent any kind of accuracy that the gun is capable of. I think you're reading more into these targets than you should.

Red Dot Sight

I highly prefer the Red Dot scope as my choice for a sighting system for my accuracy based firearms for the simple reason that I enjoy shooting my firearms with this type of a sight. I really like the ability to get such a nice sight picture from a red dot and it makes me feel good having such an optic system on my guns. I enjoy the simplicity and clarify of being able to focus on one sighting plane, which is the target itself far in the distance, and concentrating on finding the moment of zen when the dot hovers over the center of the bullseye so I can will the gun to shoot without trying to pull the trigger.

I have always found the idea of blurring the target while focusing on the front sight an anathema to shooting since you are forced to break a fundamental rule of keeping the target in-sight at all times while shooting at it. The optical scope, including the electronic red dot scope, are the answer to this paradox of iron sight usage since you were able to see what you were shooting at.

Please, do not try to ruin my enjoyment of the sport with your preaching of the iron sights dogma. I have shot iron sights on my other guns and did almost as well with them as I am now doing with a red dot sight. However now that I have learned the red dot sight I have improved even more and left iron sights behind. In reality the iron sights were the crutch in the shooting performance and I improved after I graduated from them.

This Pardini has awesome iron sights as you can see from the images and they are accurate too as you saw from some of the targets on the first post from my friend shooting. However, I will not use them because I will be using the red dot sight on this pistol since this is what I prefer to shoot and that is why I bought the gun with the rail installed, the red dot sight ordered, and quick removable rings that I just purchased.



Couple Hours of Bar 9

I'm very satisfied with the gun's performance from my perspective as a newcomer to bullseye shooting. In the two days that I had some quiet time at the range during the middle of the week I was able to finish Bar 9 of the NRA Bullseye Pistol Stage Course of Fire without trying or having to reshoot any targets. I am very happy with how this gun handles on the slow, timed, and especially rapid fire stages since I feel like it allows me to shoot well without putting any effort into it.

I'm looking forward to finishing the current lowered aggregate Expert and Distinguished Expert stages the next time or two that I get some time at the range. After that I'm going to start my real training and practice for the classic aggregate Distinguished Expert of 285/300.

That is when I'll really have time to enjoy the gun and get into the training since right now I'm floating through the current course without effort so I'm not getting the benefits of training through challenge of difficulty.

Please don't read more into this than what is written because I know some of the people reading this will misinterpret my intentions when I write these things. I consider myself a good shooter and I'm able to breeze through the course of fire because of the practice that I have had before this pistol and also because this is a good pistol to shoot. I wrote this honestly to outline my progression and how this pistol is helping me with the course of fire and not to show off my skills since they are not that great when compared against others better than me. I understand that I am not a great shooter by any means and seeing my friend Charelton shoot repetitive perfect scores in competitions while I trail 6-points behind always reminds me of that.



Rimfire Rifle

The same exact thing happened to me when I was doing the NRA Light Rifle Course of Fire with my custom Volquartsen .22 LR with a Sightron 6-24x40 scope on a Bell & Carlson Odyssey stock. I floated through the current lowered scores without any difficulty. Only when I finished and started attempting the classic Distinguished Expert score of 95/100 did I really have to put effort into my training because the difficulty became challenging. I still haven't finished that training since I got carried away doing other things but I'm looking forward to returning to do this again as I take a break after the pistol course or if I get stuck.



Collection More Complete

It's great though. I'm very happy to have a very good .22 LR rimfire pistol to match my rimfire rifle. I now feel a sense of completion and satisfaction when I consider that my gun collection is closer to completion with the addition of this pistol.

I will take a few more pictures when I get a chance this time with the red dot sight installed with the Leupold Quick Removable rings that I'm using now. The gun looks and shoots very good with this system the way it is.[/i]

Ultradot Match 30mm Red Dot Sight

I've been shooting this red dot sight both days now that I had this gun for two weeks. I have found that the image of the dot in the sight is flawed, unclear and there are reflections and imperfections in the dot.

I have been using this dot at the lowest setting of 1 on the rheostat turret at the smallest dot size.

Dot Problems

The dot in the sight is not perfectly round since it has lines of aberration directly below the dot and also to the right side of it. The lines make it difficult to determine the center of the dot when focusing away at distance. Sometimes the dot splits in half on some shots creating a half-moon and I have even noticed that it split three-ways every so often. Very rarely is the dot a perfect circle.

Brightness Problems

The brightness of the dot at the lowest setting of 1 on the rheostat is also a problem because the dot is so bright that it blocks out the image of the target behind it and the strength of the dot creates a little star-burst effect blocking and warping the image of the target around the dot itself.

In the other red dot sights that I have, like the Millett 4 MOA dot and others that I have seen, the rheostat functions correctly and at the lowest setting the dot is only barely visible allowing you to see the image of the target behind the weak dot. The other scopes allow you to change the brightness to a setting of 3-5 to give you a nice dot indoors without any aberrations or star-burst effects. This sight is just too bright at the lowest setting not allowing you to go any lower.

Smallest Dot Size Is Not 2 MOA

The smallest dot size on this sight that is listed as 2 MOA is not actually that size. My Millet 4 MOA sight is the exact same dot size as the 2 MOA dot on this sight. Additionally my friend's Aimpoint CompC3 2 MOA sight that is listed as 2 MOA is half the size of the smallest dot on this sight. It appears to me that the 2 MOA size is only a marketing embellishment to make this sight "Match" name worthy.

The design of this Ultradot Match sight is almost identical to the Millett Multidot that it is likely that both were made by the same OEM in the same factory and just branded differently when being resold in the states. Even the little ornamental wing around the rheostat knob is the same. The Millett Multidot was listed with 3 MOA smallest dot and the Ultradot with 2 MOA dot.

The main and only reason why I decided to buy these Ultradot Match sights is because I wanted the smaller 2 MOA dot. I am unsatisfied with my current Millett 4 MOA dot size because it is too big and was covering too much of the center of the bullseye making me guestimate the center of the dot to align with the center of the bullseye.

So the main reason for me to get this sight turns out to be not true.



Eliminating Causes

Battery Power Not A Cause

At first I thought that the battery that came with the sight was too strong and was sending too much juice into the laser LED that was causing too much light and optical dot aberrations caused by reflections in the tube. However, I changed the brand new battery for a very old and used one and there was no change in the intensity of the dot nor did the dot image problems lessen or disappear.

The new CR2032 battery was 3.17 V and the very old battery that I got from a friend at the range was only 3.01 V. I had a fairly old battery also in my Millett red dot slight at 3.08 V that tried but no difference.

Shooting Safetly Glasses Not The Cause

I thought that there was some interference with my shooting glasses and I tried shooting the gun with different glasses and even a few test shots without any glasses but the same problem persists.

My Eyesight Not The Cause

I had other folks shoot this gun with this sight at the exact same settings and they have all commented about how they don't like this red dot sight. They all see the dot unclearly so it seems that my eyes are not the cause of the problem.

Second Sight On Revolver Same Problem

The second sight that I bought at the same time as this one that I put on the revolver has the same problem. This could be a manufacturing problem with this lot of sights that were produced or it could be an issue affecting all the sights, but since I don't have any other sights to compare I can't tell.



Return Imminent

After dealing with this sight for the past two weeks I am going to contact Larry's Guns about them to arrange a return and refund for them because these sights are not good and the advertised 2 MOA dot is not true.

My guess as to the real cause of this problem is that the rheostat is putting out too much juice to the LED making the dot too bright and the brightness is causing the image to refract on reflection from the surface on the inner optic or that the LED is just too strong in the first place no matter the voltage it receives.

I like my ultradot and find no issues as you mentioned, ... just curious


What is your next choice of scope now that you've tested and compared against a few others?

Regards

Mass Shooter wrote:I like my ultradot and find no issues as you mentioned, ... just curious

What is your next choice of scope now that you've tested and compared against a few others?

I still haven't chosen a replacement scope but I am positive that the Ultradot Match scopes that I have are either faulty themselves or that the new production models all suffer from the same problem.

I didn't write this above but my guess is that the rheostat is not properly calibrated or the LED being used is being overdriven causing the dot image to reflect and or refract in the inner glass causing these image aberrations. I can duplicate these same problems on my Millett Scope if I bump up the brightness to 5 or higher and look at the dot indoors, I get the same image problems. The bigger issue is that this problem happens on the Ultradot Match scope at the lowest brightness setting of 1 even with very old CR2032 batteries so I have no way of lowering the intensity of the scope externally and I certainly didn't buy these scopes to start digging around inside them with resistors to drop the voltage myself.

I paid ~$187 USD at Larry's Guns for both of the Ultradot Match 30mm scopes when I locked the price in back in December but now the price is $195 USD.



Aimpoint Sights

My friend who shoots better than me was told flat out to buy an Aimpoint scope by some law enforcement friends of his and he now has an Aimpoint CompC3 2 MOA scope with unusual 1/3N batteries that now sells for ~$404 USD at Midway USA. He uses this scope on his S&W 686 Performance Center revolver and he's won 480 Combat Shooting competitions with multiple perfect scores with this scope and he loves it. The scope is extremely durable and accurate, hence Aimpoint's history of making hardened military spec optics.


Aimpoint CompC3 2 MOA scope

It comes standard with a single removable ring so I've tried it on my Pardini SP New pistol already and it works very well. The 2 MOA dot in his scope is clearly a lot smaller than the so called 2 MOA on the Ultradot Match and the clarify of the dot on the Aimpoint is better with a perfect circle for the dot without any image issues. The brightness settings on his scope are very adjustable with the lowest settings making the dot practically invisible, which is understandable since those settings are that low for night vision optics, and then a few brightness settings higher the dot becomes barely visible until you keep making it as bright as you want.

Unfortunately, the Aimpoint CompC3 model is no longer in stock at any of the major distributors such as Midway USA so it looks like the Aimpoint CompM4 2 MOA with standard AA batteries for ~$610 USD at ManVenture Outpost is the replacement scope now. It looks like it still has the 30mm tube and comes with a newly designed QRP2 removable ring but the length of the tube is shorter.


Aimpoint CompM4 2 MOA



Rings

I actually like the design and format of the Ultradot Match scope very much. It is has a long 30mm tube and this design matches the gun very well. I purchased the all steel very good quality rings for this scope to allow me to keep the scope in the same case as the gun and to mount it and remove it as I need to.


Leupold QRW Rings 30mm Matte Low

I bought these rings at ManVenture Outpost for $56.12 USD and they are great.



Ultradot Match Wishes

I really wished that the Ultradot Match scope would work out perfectly for my revolver and rimfire but it seems that this is not the case. I'll try to get the scopes exchanged to see if maybe this production lot had issues and other scopes will be fine but I have a feeling that this is not a resolvable issue.

I already cut out the roam padding in my Pardini case to fit the Ultradot Match because I was expecting the scope to work perfectly. I'm willing to send the scopes back for replacement and hope that new production units will not have this problem.



Millett Scope History

Originally a few years back I bought an almost identical scope, the Millett Multidot, and after getting my hopes out about it I took it to the range the first time and the scope died after taking 4-shots with it on my S&W 686 revolver shooting standard Remington UMC 130gr .38 Special ammo. I sent the scope back to Millett for repair and after a month of not hearing back from the company I was told that they did not have these scopes in stock anymore because they are changing production factories for it and they could only send me a new production Single 4 MOA dot scope as a replacement. That's what I have now on my revolver and I'm not entirely thrilled with it when I compare it to other people's scopes. Hence the reason why I bought two Ultradot Match scopes to replace the Millett.

As I later found out the Millett company had some business issues so they stopped making those red dot scopes and the scopes that were being made right before they stopped had problems with quality and turned defective because of the type of cold sodder that was being used on the electronics causing the electrical connections to come loose after the recoil shock from shooting. The old Millett scopes were of great quality as my friends tell me at the range after years of usage, but it was just my luck to get the new production scopes that were problematic.

I seem to have the same issue with my MatchDot scope.

The dot is teardrop shape with the tail at about 4pm..

My instructor tells me that it is due to me having astigmatism ....though I am convinced it has only changed in the past moth.

Will keep an eye on it....

Any thoughts would be welcome though

If it is astigmatism the orientation of the "tail" will not change as the sight is rotated. Easy to try.

Pure genius.....rotated the scope and the teardrop stayed in place.

Removed glasses...dot is round.

Made sure I am looking through the top of my graduated bifocals....dot is nearly round.


Why has this suddenly happened.

No Resolution

Lucky for you guys that you're able to resolve your issues with the sight. Unfortunately, no matter what I tried I could not make either of the two sights to look properly for me. I don't wear any glasses and I changed my shooting glasses thinking that it was them causing the problems but it is not so.

I believe that the problem that I am experiencing with my sights is a culmination of multiple factors:

The brightness of the lowest level 1 is too bright for in-door usage at 50-feet so it is causing reflections and refractions inside the scope tube. Additionally, the dot gets a starburst pattern on it and the brightness of the dot obscures the target behind it instead of being transparent/translucent. (It is probably fine for outdoor usage during normal and sunny days.)

The size of the 2 MOA dot appears as big to me as a 4 MOA dot on my Millett Sight and the primary reason why I bought this dot was for the smallest 2 MOA dot.

I shoot with both eyes open and I believe that the additional reflections and refractions might be caused by having the second eye open. I briefly experimented with shooting with one eye and the dot did get a little clearer but just as bright. However, since I am used to shooting with both eyes open I am unwilling to change that since that is the preferred way for me to aim allowing me a wider field of vision and also the ability to dynamically switch eye dominance and focus between the sight and the target to verify where my shots are going without moving the gun out of the way to see.

I know that the UltraDot sights are highly recommended and I do like them a lot due to their low price and high quality but I feel that these sights are just not working out for me so I'm going to look elsewhere. Nothing against UltraDot, just a personal preference at this point after giving these sights a good try.



Distinguished Expert Without Glory

I've been using the UltraDot MatchDot sight and I just finished the NRA Bullseye Pistol Course of Fire at the Distinguished Expert level (269/300) without much effort and without having to reshoot any targets at all in just four shooting sessions starting at Sharpsooter level and climbing all the Bars. I will now be focusing on starting my real training by going for the classic Distinguished Expert score of 285/300.

I scored one 285/300 aggregate score and also the last aggregate Timed target I got 99/100 on it. I shoot around the 80-90 score for the slow fire stages at 30-seconds per string, doing it much too fast. The timed and rapid stages I usually score 92-98 with an average around 95. I really need to take more time at the slow fire stages and do the 1-shot per minute/30-seconds thing to really focus on accuracy instead of just rushing through that stage. I think that with a lot more practice I should really start getting better with some challenge to make the experience count.

I had the same experience of breezing through the current lowered and gimped Distinguished Expert rank scores when I was doing the NRA Light Rifle Course of Fire with my custom Volquartsen 10/22 and Sightron 6-24x40mm scope. The real challenege only came after I started going for the classic Distinguished Expert scores of 95/100 which I haven't finished yet since I lost focus on it. I'll probably go back to it after I spend some time with this pistol.



Scope Regret

However, while shooting the last few weeks I felt that the UltraDot MatchDot was doing a good job but that the dot was too bright and also not as small or clear as my friend's Aimpoint CompC3.

I'm in the position now of not being able to return my sights for a refund since Larry's Guns won't accept a return on them so I'm selling my sights on eBay to recoop my costs and hopefully sell the sights to take the money and buy an Aimpoint sight. I really hoped that these highly reviewed and recommended UltraDot sights would have worked for me but they just aren't so I have to look for a replacement.

The Aimpoint CompC3 is now showing "Available" shipping status at MidwayUSA for $404 USD and that is the sight that my friend is using and that I tried already. The only thing about that sight is that it uses the unusual 1/3 N batteries instead of standard AA ones.

The newest Aimpoint CompM4s available for $610 USD at ManventureOutput is another alternative that I am considering. However, I am unsure which one would be better for my requirements for in-door shooting.

The M4s is the newest model and also it is redesigned to have the battery tube on the bottom of the sight and it takes standard AA batteries. That is a benefit but the cost is $200 USD more. I'll have to do some research to find out.

I don't know if there are any other alternative high-end sights to consider except those two that offer 2 MOA dots.

Well May 5th I got a chance to try my Pardini out with a Bushnell Trophy dot. Local 900 match at which I usually shot my High Standard around the 750-60 area. Got a lot of razzing about my new fancy gun. I used the 4MOA dot on the green side. The red side was way too bright and had a lot of starburst. Really was affected by my astigmatism. The green dot looks round and light against the black target. Seemed a lot easier on the eye. Anyway I shot a 780 8X. Won Timed and Rapid along with Overall by 19 points. Just a note, usually something around a 780 wins each week, it’s just this week was my week as the others had an off day. We will see what happens tonight. Our group is made up of a bunch of really old folks who have seen better targets ages ago and a few new shooters just learning the game and coming up fast.

May 12th club 900 match. Shot a 790 12x. Personal best and enough to win the night. Just as a little background, I shot indoor smallbore rifle on and off for 30 years until 2 hip replacements made it impossible to get into positions. Just took up bullseye as a casual alternative because I wanted to continue competition and had a Victor from the 70s for a plinking gun. Been shooting once a week for about 1.5 years and although I have had some good targets, I’ve been stuck around 750-760. Dryfiring with the Victor was difficult so I practiced with an airpistol. With the Pardini it is very easy to dry fire and the grip fits quite a bit better like my airpistol. Next I hope to blow through 800.

I shot a Pardini SP using Wolf match Target ammo for flawless performance. I moujnted the 30mm Ultra Dot using a pair of ADCO mounts that Don Nygord slimmed the basses a touch - they held zero perfedctly for more than 5 seasons.

Wow....what a great thread. I know....it's S E V E N years old, but I learned SOO much despite many "so called seasoned vets' bashing the OP.
Thank you to all of you that participated in this thread - I learned a lot and it was this thread alone that made me register and comment. Cheers !

Most olympians pistol shooters use the Pardini but it is by no means necessary to do well in Bullseye. I believe the current NRA Bullseye record established by Jim Henderson was shot with a Hammerli Xesse set up by Larry's guns. I currently shoot (and love) the Pardini SPBE in 22 and 32; prior to this pistol, I shot a well worn Walther GSP and before that, a S&W 41 7.375-in barrel that I bought in 1972. I've also shot HS Victors and Sharpshooters; both shoot very well. Years ago I used the 41 for squirrel hunting and made many head shots, from a rested hold, between 30 and 50 yards, especially when shooting from up in the trees. I thought of it as my small rifle.

Glory days begone. But I am loving retirement with my Pardini; accurate pistols are fun to shoot and it is very accurate and very reliable; it eats almost anything you put in it (I recently bought some Fiocchi SV in which the bullets were a little longer than usual and did not fit in magazines well). CCI SV shoots very well and is more accurate than I am precise, but every now and then I seem to need to spend more than necessary on more expensive ammo. I've had one stovepipe with a 22 out of thousands of rounds. Pardini imports the parts into the U.S., and the guns are assembled here (which somehow gets around certain import restrictions). I have never had any problems with mine (well, except mental ones). I confess that for some reason I left the safety on after load testing and at my next regular BE match, I couldn't get my beloved SP to fire. I was completely stumped. I had to borrow a pistol to shoot an 1800 match backwards (shooting the 45 while others were shooting rimfire and the reverse). Only later and much to my chagrin, after worrying all-the-way-home, did I discover I had left the damn safety on! Not my most brilliant moment: pistol safety device (a safety) stumps old pistol shooter...

Scope
I use the MatchDot II 30mm scope; it enables me to use one scope for two calibers and it works repeatably and well. Its biggest advantage is you can "zero" the elevation setting by unscrewing the elevation turret, pulling it up, and setting it on "0" after you have your pistol dialed in. So, I zeroed it for 22lr at 25 yds, adjust elevation setting +3 clicks for 50 yds., and for 32 ACP, my setting is +6 clicks for 25 yds and +10 for 50yds. I've never had to move the windage more than one or two clicks off "0" and that works for both calibers.

Rings
I have tried a bunch of rings: the ones included with the 22/32 package from Pardini would not hold position with the 32 ACP (this experience varied among shooters). Pardini kindly sent me another ring to back up the front ring, but three rings still failed to hold the scope in position with the anemic recoil impulse of the 32 ACP. I think the rather wimpy cross-bolt screws that clamped the rings onto the groove at the top of the frame were the fault. I then went to Warne rings for the 19mm dovetail (made for CZ rifles). These are steel rings and hold like glue (no Loctite needed). However, you have to ask Warne to send the front rings only (tell them you are using the rings for the Pardini pistol). However, I abandoned these as they were about 0.75-in higher than the low rings that Pardini initially sold with the pistol. I prefer the low rings.

I now use Warne 30mm low mount rings. These keep the scope low on the pistol and I've mounted both rings on front of the scope, which leaves most of the scope hanging over grip, and moves the center of gravity to the rear (see image). These rings are made for pickaninny rails. They will mount better if you file the inside angle of the ring's feet (both sides) to make them fit in the frame groove. They hold like glue and if you use the same mounting point, they return to zero or nearly so, which enables you remove the scope and shoot EIC or international matches, and remount the scope for centerfire stage. Regarding mounting rings: make sure the scope is correctly leveled with respect to windage, e.g., use a level set on the battery lid, while holding the pistol (without magazine) firmly on a level table (setting on the magazine well). If done correctly, you should not have to change the windage setting much from the factory "0."

If you can afford it; buy one and you will never look back.

If money is an issue, I just looked at a S&W Victor (meant to compete with Ruger Mark II and IIIs). It appears to be a reasonable starting pistol and Volquartsen already has aftermarket barrels. The truth is that just about all the pistols I've mentioned are capable of winning if shot competently. If you have faith in your equipment and have the fundamentals down (stance, grip, sight, trigger pull), you should do well with any reasonably accurate pistol. I started shooting my model 41 when I was 21 yrs old and did not think there was a pistol that could match it. I wish I had got into the target game earlier but I was more interested in having and eating nature. Cheers, dipnet