TargetTalk

Bryan, do you remember me saying that sometimes you confuse the devil out of me ? I have also said that I can't use what you are saying to shoot a ten. Have I really missed your point? Can I use what you are saying to shoot 10 tens in a row? That seems to be what Russ is trying to teach and you also. That approach is clearly the way to win matches. I suspect I'm a slow learner sometimes. Good Shooting Bill Horton

Bill, thats a big Question.
No you havent really missed the point. with due respect, I would say you (me included) still have lots to learn. Some things you will only learn when you are ready to accept the information.
Despite the veiw you took when you first started posting, you have come a long way, and have a better understanding of what you were/are doing in your own mind. You have switched sides in the how to shoot a ten debate.
To consiously shoot 10 tens in a row in comp, using the scope for each shot etc is difficult. but possible. 20 tens harder, etc. etc.
reason is the little man in the back of your head (remember him) will not be happy at some point, this point is determined by the depth of training you have given him (subconcious)
This brings us back to using your imagination, cutting out the middle man (the one in the back of your head)
your Imagination has no fear, this is why it will allow you to shoot 10 tens in a row without getting up a sweat.

To train to use your imagination takes a lot of work.
Yes you have used your imagination in the past to compete (in the zone). You just need to learn how to go there at will, rather than by accident.
It is at this point I see many people loose their way in the search to get back, they over complicate everything in thier quest.

Slow, no. If you get taught the wrong thing all your life, it takes a long time to accept a different approach.
especially if you only get bits and peices. not to mention I have never posted everything you need to know. though there is a poor translation from chinese, that covers it quite well in a round about way.

that was the short answer. lol

It wasnt all that long ago it wasnt a good idea to think the world was not flat!

regards
bryan

You just need to learn how to go there at will, rather than by accident.
It is at this point I see many people loose their way in the search to get back, they over complicate everything in thier quest.

Bryan,
You really tantalize me with your writings!
I vividly recall putting myself back into the 'zone' during an action pistol (pin) match many years ago. While I remember the end point and the pathway, the entrance is lost somewhere in my mind. Finding it again requires determination and training effort that I can no longer manage.

regards,
Fred

fred, thats the problem. It is so easy in the zone, it is confusing how to get back. the more we analyse what we did to get there, the greater the mystery becomes. most will apply thier verbal thought process.
but its using pictures and feelings. In the zone has a very specific feeling.

learning to recognise your inner feelings is a big part of finding your way back into the right place.
When you are happy, there is a specific feeling inside, also like sad, mad, in love etc.

regards
bryan

Bryan,

I think perhaps you over-complicate things. It seems like a bad idea to me to try to improve your score by playing mind games with yourself. Instead, why not focus on what is really important, i.e., sight picture, minimizing arc of movement and trigger control. Of course, all of these things will improve with practice.

When you improve to the point where you average 8 shots out of 10 in the 10-ring (like on timed and rapid fire), you will naturally shoot 10 10's in a row about 10 percent of the time, i.e., 80 percent raised to the 10th power. If, by chance, you can raise your level of skill to the point where you average 9 out of 10 shots in the 10-ring, then you can expect to shoot 10 10's in a row roughly 35 percent of the time (just ask someone like Brian Zins).

What you describe as being "in the zone" is the feeling you get when you string together a lot of good shots in a row, which happens to everyone from time to time. And, as you are no doubt well aware, you lose that feeling as soon as you screw up. The point is, please don't make the mistake of confusing correlation (doing well, correlated with a 'feeling' of being "in the zone") with cause and effect.

If you truly want to be "in the zone" more, get the best equipment, the best ammunition for that equipment, and practice, practice, practice!

Regards,

Al B.

Mmmm
Well, its not mind games by any means.
using calculus is an interesting approach. and with the right formula, the correct result can be calculated.

where you come up with the wrong result is not including enough variables.
part of what you are saying is right, I dont know brian zins, but put him on the line of a major comp with first 9 shots 10's, and he would stuggle with the 10th 100% of the time if using your approach. providing he knew the result. I'm not saying he wouldnt nail it, it would be a lot of work.
what you are saying is applicable to those yet to get to that level, what I am talking about (Re imagination) is really of little use to most shooters. But for the shooters that are ready, it is more important than any peice of equipment or training/practice available.
Russ mentioned consistent 570ap before even looking at it. you need to be at that technical level first. So please keep working on what you are doing, in time you may find yourself at a point that you cant get past. then it is time.

The term in the zone can mean different things to different people. the first step is to ensure you are in fact in the zone, not on a high from results. It is unlikely to accidently get in the zone being result based.

Al, when you are ready to ask the right question, I will try to answer it if I can

regards
bryan

bryan wrote: learning to recognise your inner feelings is a big part of finding your way back into the right place.
When you are happy, there is a specific feeling inside, also like sad, mad, in love etc.

Thanks for the help

bryan wrote:I dont know brian zins, but put him on the line of a major comp with first 9 shots 10's, and he would stuggle with the 10th 100% of the time if using your approach. providing he knew the result. I'm not saying he wouldnt nail it, it would be a lot of work.

Bryan,

Brian Zins is our 8-time national bullseye champion here in the U.S. Does he struggle with that 10th shot when it comes up? I doubt it. Sure, he is human, and he'll get the adrenaline rush just like everyone else, but he probably experiences it as a pleasurable sensation. And he'll nail that 10th shot 8 or 9 times out of 10, because thats his skill level, and because negative thoughts simply don't intrude when you're enjoying a peak experience.

Many years ago, I used to shoot archery. One year we had a league where, going into the last match of the season, I had the high score for the league -- 298 out of 300. That night, another shooter came up to me and announced that he was going to take my trophy away from me by beating my score. He had never shot better than 290 in his life, but that night he shot a 299. He almost beat me, but I shot a 300 for the first time in competition.

What was I thinking when I picked up my bow for the 60th time, after just shooting 59 bullseyes in a row, knowing that I'd never shot a clean round in competition? I was thinking about how great the rush felt. And I just knew that I was going to nail that shot!

You just don't get that feeling when you practice.

Some people jump out of airplanes to experience the rush. Others go bungee-jumping. Still others compete at sports, looking for those rare opportunities when the game is on the line and they have to perform. Professional basketball coaches talk about the fact that when the game is on the line, some players want the ball, others don't.

The adrenaline rush is a basic fact of physiology. It can be interpreted as fear, anxiety, anger, or pleasure. How you interpret the feeling has a lot to do with how it affects your performance.

What you've been talking about sounds like what golfers refer to as "the yips." The yips only occur in golf when putting, where you are only using a small amount of force, and fine motor control is required. As negative thoughts intrude, they have a small but disruptive effect on the nervous system that interferes with that fine motor control.

In golf, the common cure for the yips is to focus on the cup, not the ball. Interestingly, Brian Zins recommends focusing on the target, not the dot, when shooting with a dot sight. Basically, you're focusing on where you want the ball or the bullet to go -- not how to get it there, and just letting it happen.

If, on average, you only shoot 4 out of 10 shots into the 10-ring, then your chances of shooting a 10 on the 10th shot after you've just shot an extremely rare 9 10's in a row (a 1 in 3,815 chance), are going to be 40 percent (unless you screw things up with negative thoughts). So enjoy the opportunity, and just do it! You'll win 40 percent of the time. Know your capabilities and enjoy your opportunities when you get them, and you'll naturally do your best. It's really just that simple.

Regards,

Al B.

Thanks fred

Al, thank you for the feed back and history lesson. What is bullseye by the way?
Im newish to pistol.

I understand all to well what you are talking about Re shooting approach, I did it like that for many years.

learn your inner feelings, and you will understand.

Yes, definately focus on the target with any type of scope.
never the dot or crosswires.
but not with iron sights.

regards
bryan

bryan wrote:Thanks fred

What is bullseye by the way?
I'm newish to pistol.

Here's a reference to 'bullseye' http://www.bullseyepistol.com/.
Similar to ISSF Standard Pistol, but shot with three pistols - 22. centerfire, 45. A match consists of 90 shots (slow, timed, rapid fire) from each pistol.

FYI, AlB and I compete against each other at a 22 bullseye league most every Monday evening.