TargetTalk

guest 10 wrote:even though people suggest that competitions are the same as training it doesnt work for me. whenever i need to shoot for scores my heart rate climbs and sometimes even doubles(from 60 resting to 120). this makes it very hard to shoot somehow. i noticed that for me anything more than 90 means i can't even align the sights properly..

That typifies the area of training that most people ignore. It is quite possible to train the whole 'competition nerves' out of the equation, or at least train to reduce their effects. You can learn amongst other things relaxation techniques but also doing lots of competitions help reduce their stressfulness. Do some searches on menal training etc on here.

Rob.

The word "provenance" is almost as easy to look up on the internet as registering on this forum.

"Provenance is the origin or source from which something comes. Knowledge of provenance can help to assign the work to a known artist and a documented history can be of use in helping to prove ownership."

If you sign in as "Guest" you have no provenance. For example, my 10 year old son could sign in as "Guest" and claim to have an average of 590 and recommend that we all stand on our heads for 20 minutes before a training session. Since the advicehas no provenance I would ignore it.

Now, if Steve Swartz tells me to stand on my head for 20 minutes, I might give it a go. Steve - please resist the temptation!

It seems to me that "Guest" is beginning to take on the same style Chet Skinner, surely they cannot be related.

Both are making claims of success that cannot be corroborated.

Axel wrote:Talking about hard and dedicated training and achieving pretty high scores in a short time is bad. It's called bragging.

On the contary, it's a very good thing. It demonstrates what can be achieved by proper application.

I'm afraid though that "bragging" isn't the word that most would use when such high claims are made anonymously and cannot therefore be substantiated.

Richard H wrote: I'm sure your going to go and shoot 600 or 599 depending on the wind ;)

No wind - we shoot indoors at 25yd. I'd love to be able to shoot at the regulation 50m.
On topic - this is my third year at AP and I shoot A class and shot a personal best of 548 in last month's match. I am finally at a point where I feel (almost) as relaxed at a match as I do in practice.

I have no idea whether or not "Guests" or "Axels" claims are true or exagerrated; or whether or not they are indeed the same person.

While I agree their posts are suspiciously "Chet like" (as soon as the claim was made . . . " and my mates adopting my method had remarkable success" . . . the 'Chet Meter' went to Full Alert); it really doesn't matter.

The only substantive advice offered in this thread has been to "work hard and shoot happy" (o.k. as far as it goes) followed by a laundry list of 25 or so things to "Focus" [sic] on. The list, OBTW, could be cut and pasted from any shooting book or coach's conference.

The point is that none of what Axel/Guest has offered here has been in any demonstrable sense "wrong" or incorrect (putting aside personal performance claims which are frankly irrelevant).

It just hasn't been particularly useful, either.

Here's the deal. There are four kinds of people in this world:

1) Those who can perform well themselves but can't explain how they do it
2) Those who can't perform well themselves but are excellent at explaining/helping others to perform
3) Those who can do both
4) Those who can do neither

While who you take advice from is your own business, I personally have never found Type 1 or Type 4 to b e particularly useful. Sadly, many excellent athletes become coaches based on their "aura" or "halo effect" and are absolute disasters as coaches. Conversely, many excellent coaches offer spot-on advice and are ignored because they personally don't have the numbers to back up what they say.

Frankly, I learned very early in life the following maxim (loosely adapted from Scott Adams' Dilbert cartoons):

"Be vary of advice from successful people- they don't really want your company"

Sadly, I have known quite a few successful people who play this "zero sum game" of shutting the door behind them.

(Not imp-lying that Axel/Guest are that way; I see I have gone off on a tangent again)

Apologies for the rant.

Steve Swartz

Axel is not "guest", I know him personally and he is a good shooter, spectacular really considering the amount of time he has been shooting.

He did however answer a question of average scores with his personal bests, and that opened a can of worms...
That´s a pity, he really is an athlete with a very positive attitude.

In an earlier post someone asked a question why someone like that (guest really, I think...) isn´t on the national team.
I can only speak for my country, in sweden minimum scores for being selected in airpistol (match score, shot during the previus 6 months) is 580 for WC and 582 for european/world championships.

Of course those who regularly score 575 and up in matches are watched and recieve some coaching help.

/Anders

the shy guest ;-) wrote:[quote="

<snip>
Several people has beaten their personal records after a little training with me an trying my ideas and methods. And they were happy and I were happy with inspiring them and helping them. All of them said I didn´t think this was possible for me. I saw their potential, but they didn´t believe it was possible. Low confidence and low goals? I don´t now, but they were happy, and smiling! :-)

This paragraph , from a long posting in response to Nicole Hamilton and Rob Stubbs' comments sounds very much like someone who is not a shooter , but a Coach !!

So who is this ? Guest ? Shy Guest ?


Elmas

.

Anders Turebrand wrote: He did however answer a question of average scores with his personal bests, and that opened a can of worms...

That's probably the issue I guess. Sure it's kind of nice to know what people shoot like but it's pretty much irrelevant. It makes no difference to the worth of what they're saying - pretty much as Steve suggested.

It's been said on here many times before but there's always lots of advice, some good, some less good. The 'skill' is separating the wheat from the chaff - and that partly comes with experience, and partly realising there is no magic solution.

Rob.

Several people have asked what country these folks shooting 570+, and training 30+ hours a week are from.. I would REALLY like to know where they are from, and what kind of support they are getting.

Axel, I assume, is from Sweden (or Germany?). What about the other guests with fantastic scores??? I don't see any reason not to tell us??

I'm concerned that part of the problem with our accepting their scores, is our failure to attain anything close to them, based on the amount of time we can commit to training. I can't speak for the US shooters, but I have a mortgage to pay (so I can own a house, and land), a full-time job (thankfully understanding about the time I need for matches), family, dogs, etc...

I'm developing, but not at the rate that I could.. If I quit my job, sold the house, gave away the dogs, well... you get it.

So.. I guess it's back to the original question... How your scores will develop will depend on the level of effort you put into it. If you are a beginning shooter, able to practise a couple times a week, I suspect you'll probably develop like I am.. 450-490-505-512-520's within about a year.. maybe you're better, maybe not. If I could dedicate 35 hours a week to shooting, I would want to reach 565 within the next six months.

Of course... I can't.. so I'll have to take the long road.

Cheers,

David

********

PS: Has anyone ever come up with a list of countries, and the kind of support they offer for their ISSF shooters?? That would be an interesting read!!!

Steve Swartz wrote: The point is that none of what Axel/Guest has offered here has been in any demonstrable sense "wrong" or incorrect (putting aside personal performance claims which are frankly irrelevant).

It just hasn't been particularly useful, either.

Here's the deal. There are four kinds of people in this world:

1) Those who can perform well themselves but can't explain how they do it
2) Those who can't perform well themselves but are excellent at explaining/helping others to perform
3) Those who can do both
4) Those who can do neither

Oh my, what an unfriendly place this has become. It's sad in a way.

The original question starting this thread was about beginner scores. Now, in a sudden, actual scores are irrelevant since it adds no weight to the words of the writer. Logical somersault?

Mr. targettalk Superstar, here is the deal.

I'm sorry that my posts didn't feel useful to you. But perhaps someone else felt the opposite. Perhaps there are other readers/writers in here that are capable of making their own conclusions about what’s useful and not.

I have another category to add to your silly little list - but I will keep it to myself since I don't want to add any more fuel to this unfriendly and negative atmosphere.

ok i finally registered an account. im the guest who shoots 540s.

if you wanted to know i was greatly help by reading the Army Marksmanship Unit's Pistol Training Guide on bullseyepistol.com. i would say it has been the single source of print that i have gotten the most out of. (there is a great lack of shooting related books here so i turn to the internet)

i believe that my technique isnt polished and thats why i can't improve(my scores have been pretty stangnant for the past year). so i would say that if you are a beginner and intend to shoot competitively focus on the basics. your scores might not improve as fast but at least your limit wont be reached so easily.

after so many years i have build many bad habits that i am trying to eliminate while trying to train up my basics.

my first airpistol was a feinwerkbau mod 65 which i used until i reached 510. after that i switched to a mod 103 and then to a mod 100 before going back to a 103. (i dont own the guns so i dont really have a say in what i use)

Axel wrote:I have another category to add to your silly little list ...

Heh, heh. Before you do, consider: Discount my own remarks if you like as I really am only an "okay" shooter, certainly no rock star. Steve, on the other hand, ... :)

Axel:

I sincerely and honeslty apologize for implying that you were the same person as "Guest" (based on prety thin "evidence"). We have had problems in this forum with anonymous posters making wildly exaggerated claims and posting as several different people and I incorrectly suspected that this may have beena repeat ocurrence of that situation.


As to the other part of it (quality of contribution to helping others), your sensitivity to being (by implication) categorized by someone who "can shoot very well but isn't very helpful in providing advice to others" is curious.

I didn't realize that you were personally offended by being placed (by implication) in the same category as the vast majority of "World Class" shooters- who are almost invariably (?!) not very good at either 1) explaining how they accomplish their incredible feats; or 2) helping others figure out how to do it themselves.

Going back through the thread before sending this (arguably "qualified") apology, I see your contributions have been:

- You can shoot very well if you really want to
- Relax and have fun
- Don't worry about what others do
- Don't worry about what others tell you
- Work hard
- Great success is possible early on

This advice may indeed be found useful by other beginning shooters. I accept at face value that your postings were intended to encourage, and not discourage, new shooters.

"Mr. Targettalk Superstar" indeed! Just Say No To Drugs, Dude!


Steve Swartz

Well after reading all of this, its acually interesting what hard work can do.

I wanted to answer to Guest 10 about the competition jitters..
I am still at the point that I do get nervous on a competition BUT not as what you describe.

Here´s what I do:
I try to concentrate on the shot process (breathing, the sights, etc.)
When I see the result I compare it to the shot process be it good or bad
I don´t keep a score, I go on an individual shot basis (I do remember bad shots but I don´t try to add to have an idea of what my score is)
I compare what I´m doing with what I do in practice.

This helps me keep calm to a point, the time variable still gets me since I train on a 100 shot basis not on a time basis. This however helps me take my time with my shots, when I started shooting I fihished with 30 minutes to spare in the competition, now its down to 20 on average.

hope it helps

Steve Swartz wrote:Axel:

I sincerely and honeslty apologize for implying that you were the same person as "Guest" (based on prety thin "evidence"). We have had problems in this forum with anonymous posters making wildly exaggerated claims and posting as several different people and I incorrectly suspected that this may have beena repeat ocurrence of that situation.


As to the other part of it (quality of contribution to helping others), your sensitivity to being (by implication) categorized by someone who "can shoot very well but isn't very helpful in providing advice to others" is curious.

I didn't realize that you were personally offended by being placed (by implication) in the same category as the vast majority of "World Class" shooters- who are almost invariably (?!) not very good at either 1) explaining how they accomplish their incredible feats; or 2) helping others figure out how to do it themselves.

Going back through the thread before sending this (arguably "qualified") apology, I see your contributions have been:

- You can shoot very well if you really want to
- Relax and have fun
- Don't worry about what others do
- Don't worry about what others tell you
- Work hard
- Great success is possible early on

This advice may indeed be found useful by other beginning shooters. I accept at face value that your postings were intended to encourage, and not discourage, new shooters.

"Mr. Targettalk Superstar" indeed! Just Say No To Drugs, Dude!


Steve Swartz

Thanks Steve. I really appreciate your words. I appologise for my bad temper, I was steaming... :-)

/Axel

This is just one fun reading !!

The current grading system in Australia is
Master 575
A 560
B 540
C 500
D under 500
Most new shooters start in D grade,some with previous rifle experience in C. Fairly quickly with some club level coaching and shooting may be twice a week they move up to low B grade-high C grade.
The determined ones within 12 months will make A grade, but most club shooters seem to stay around B grade.
Very few shooters (less than 5 across the country) make Master grade.
All these scores are competition scores (with Master scores shot at high level open competitions) and a master has to shoot their score every year to maintain the grade or drop back.
Local competitions are graded, so you shoot in your own grade with the Nationals and Australia cups similar to World cups.
Usually a 575-580 will take out the Nationals and you would make the National team for international events.

From previous posts I cannot believe that anyone who is shooting a 575 or better (in open competition) is not on their national team.

After several months of pain, I finally feel better. Managed to shoot 564 at home. I took some 15 minutes less than 1 hour 45 minutes. Can't believe how mentally drained I felt. I hadn't shot a full match for a while. Just hope I can pull this of at the trials on the weekend. Just wanted to thank all of you for teaching and encouraging me.


Warm Regards,

Dev

My shooting
first scoring : 541
6 month : 555
1 year :560
now 570 up

my record shoot on scoring : 584
i shoot better and reach my record 584 when i start shooting with 2 eyes open.

my problem : i don't have proper grip for my hand. Soon will order from rink. Maybe it will help me shoot stable on 570 up to 580. I shoot only air pistol.