TargetTalk

To Steve Swartz,

I sent you an offline message and got this in return:

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<leslieswartz@erinet.com>
(reason: 550 <leslieswartz@erinet.com> not found)

I find this odd since I used to use this address. Perhaps you can try toward me at ed_ka2fwj@juno.com.

To Anders and Fred,

Please do not take this wrong. I am not meaning to flame or bash, but you are exactly in the proper place for your inner selves at this point in time. Although you would like to do better, the fact that you are waiting for a return, represents an attitude of acceptance of current results. This is perfectly OK. Not everyone has the same drive to reach certain levels, especially not continuously. It may also indicate that your subconscious is busy with more important issues right now, and when appropriate you will regain prior scores. If you do become concerned enough to move forward again, you will seek out the necessary information to make it happen. Also, although this is in a different direction, don't forget to make sure your equipment isn't an issue. We sometimes try to overcome an equipment deficiency when we should address it. Case in point, no matter how much I tried to get a borrowed big name CO2 AP to print center by bringing the sights up over 25 clicks, the fact that it would only propel a pellet to 150 FEET per second just wouldn't give me the groups I'd previously recorded.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/

Oops Ed and all try leslieswartz@charter.net . . . did I give out my old email address?

Second point- I started another thread on the "shooting up to your potential issue" which will hopefully address some of the issues related to Fred/Anders posts. Maybe I should have kept them here, but consider the issues of "last 200 ms" (shot release) to be separate from "training for consistent peak performance" stuff.

Anyhow

An interesting thing to consider is the position that great equipment is a NECESSARY but not SUFFICIENT condition for shooting well.

You *must* buy "match grade" equipment for training and performance improvement- but once you have match grade equipment, FORGET ABOUT IT!

Not to be too obtuse about it, but as long as the gun roughly fits your hand, and with generic pellets can shoot 60 shots from a bench rest all inside the ten ring, from that point you need to TRAIN!!!!!! Testing equipment for "optimal performance" is, in my opinion, worse than a waste of time- it is counterproductive.

Certain minimal criteria must be met, but beyond "good enough" the concept of *better* is somewhat misleading.

Yes, Ed, the threshold for "match grade" is perhaps a little higher than an AirSoft gun!

Steve

Steve Swartz wrote: An interesting thing to consider is the position that great equipment is a NECESSARY but not SUFFICIENT condition for shooting well.

You *must* buy "match grade" equipment for training and performance improvement- but once you have match grade equipment, FORGET ABOUT IT!

Not to be too obtuse about it, but as long as the gun roughly fits your hand, and with generic pellets can shoot 60 shots from a bench rest all inside the ten ring, from that point you need to TRAIN!!!!!! Testing equipment for "optimal performance" is, in my opinion, worse than a waste of time- it is counterproductive.

Certain minimal criteria must be met, but beyond "good enough" the concept of *better* is somewhat misleading.

IMO, for most pistol event, the equipment performes so well that better or medium perforance of it has little significanse to the total performance. The shooter is the absolute most important part of the system.

(For 50 m prone rifle, the equipment is much more important)

However, I do not see why optimization of the equipment can be contraproductive, please explain! As I see it, if know know that your equipment is as good as it can be, then you believe in it and you feel more comfortable.

Pär

I have to echo Steve's point that in the realm of shooting pistols the good guns will take you as far as you are personally capable, but just to drop a name, the gun I was trying to use was a Walther CP2 that suddenly decided to dump its propellent from two different newly filled cylinders at two separate events, but not in a manner I could detect. Good equipment can still give mediocre results on occasion and should not be totally discounted if there is a change that doesn't seem warranted.

To address Pär's post, yes, your confidence in your equipment is of prime importance, but as soon as that is established, further testing can eat into your training time. I bought a chronograph a few years ago and spent quite a bit of time testing all kinds of ammo from my Hämmerli 208s before I decided that only the very poor quality ammo I had would perform at a level to keep me out of the ten ring at 50 yards. And I already knew this ammo was poor. I didn't really need any test verification.

Steve,

I saw the other post and think it's quite appropriate to start a new thread with a new title. I just felt I was causing enough trouble over here for now. I may pick up over there later. I do have some things I'd like to discuss off line as well though.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/

Here's something that I have wondered about that relates directly to the "last 200 milliseconds" theme of this thread. I accept that my subconscious reactions are much, much, much faster than my conscious reactions or perceptions. When my subconscious throws a shot and that front sight does its little twitchy thing, is it actually possible that it senses the break of the sear and the release into overtravel, and is able to react during that time frame to throw the shot? I mean that it can react during the time period after the sear breaks, while the hammer falls, the firing pin drives forward, and the cartridge fires, but before the bullet has exited the barrel? I recognize that in most cases it is actually "snatching" the trigger in the last fraction of a second, but in other cases it seems to me that it is reacting to the break, and not before the break. Is there enough time for this to physically happen or is it just an illusion? Can your subconscious move that fast? Is it in fact not a subconscious reaction in such cases, but a physical error of simple movement at the release of pressure on the trigger/sear into overtravel?

The subconscious isn't grabbing the trigger in that last 200ms either. The subconscious is working within the physical world too. It just has a far better grasp of all the timing details and can calculate coincidence of the sighting image and the trigger finish. The subconscious doesn't time the start of the trigger for that last 200ms. It times the finish of the trigger for the end of the 200ms. That's why you can consciously start the trigger pressure increase, move to the front sight focus and let the subconscious finish the trigger.

Often the little twitch is a conflict between the conscious and the subconscious because of a good/bad judgment by the conscious causing a start/stop activity. A jump can be, as mentioned, side pressure from the trigger balanced by side pressure from the wrist. This occurs when, as the trigger is operated, if it disturbs the sight picture, the conscious sighting is corrected by adding alternate pressure with the wrist. An example would be the trigger finger applying leftward pressure, which is seen in the sights by the left edge of the foresight closing in on the left of the rear sight. As this discrepancy advances, the shooter moves the foresight to the right with wrist pressure. Now, when the sear releases, the wrist briefly wins the pressure battle and a jump is observed. In firearms this jump is quite often occluded by the recoil; another good reason to spend time dry firing.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/

Great points Ed- particularly the timing explanation.

Also- about the twitch factor- the phrase I use is "El Mano Muerto" to refer to the "lifeless hand" feeling you get when grip is constant; the only moving part is the trigger finger, and it moves smoothly and surely as if on autopilot.

Glad to see you insert a subliminal "plug" for constant-force vector fire control systems (morini electric) as well . . .

Steve "Don' Need No Steenkin Sear" Swartz

Very good explanation, Mr. Hall! It explains what I see very well, especially the fact that it can be occluded by the recoil, since these are often shots that I call as good but aren't. In other cases, I see the movement, but the mind seemed to be okay with the shot. Physical causes make more sense, since the time window after the sear breaks is very small; presumably too small for a reaction effect. I have seen subconscious reactions after the shot breaks, but these have no effect on the accuracy of the shot (a swoosh of the front sight after bullet is gone).

I will have to work more on my dry firing. BTW, do you think that a few dry fires during the 1 minute preparation period (I shoot ISSF/NRA precision/timed/rapid mostly) are a good idea? I've tried this a few times and it seems to settle me in more, but I don't see this done as a regular practice by my fellow shooters.

Thanks, Steve! I'd like to try one of those "constant-force vector fire control systems" someday...

And, thanks, Mr. Stevens! Dry Fire is always good, especially in the setting of your match. I find it interesting that you don't observe others dry firing, during the preparation period, at least. I do note that I dry fire a lot more clicks than anyone else I've noticed, but I see others dry firing throughout the prep time in NRA Conventional Competition. Some even dry fire during the precision stages and prior to the timed strings. My personal dry firing starts with just operating the trigger over and over to really ingrain what pure trigger feels like, prior to adding in the visual distraction of sights and a target. Then I search for that same trigger throughout.

Take Care,
Ed Hall
http://www.airforceshooting.org/
http://www.geocities.com/ed_ka2fwj/

In my humble opinion, together with some other ones, "shot" is a compromise. The compromise between "sighting" and "finger's work". I, You, we at all, never get perfect sighting with perfect countinuous finger work. Everything we could do, to let them be "as is". It's hard inner "fight". Up to this day I'm still fighting with this "trouble" already 2 years. Good training, when I could win myself, I mark for me as "+"... bad with "-" :-(
Together with wish to keep sighting perfect, we have growing inner strenuous exertion up to moment of a shot. IMHO, that growing psychological strenuous exertion exactly breaks down us in last twinkling of an eye of shot :-(
Conclusion: It's sad but true... we all fear of a shot, yeah we're all afraid of a little piece of lead... .22/.177/.32 no matter... :-(
Of course, here are other factors too, you my persist,... but diagnosis of "non-9-10" is a "shot". I'm quite sure, big part of us could break own records shooting dry-fire with electronic system like RIKA, Scatt. But when we load cartridge... head works in another regime :-(
Stuggle and fight. Who will win oneself - will win any match.

Ruig,
Have to disagree with you. I don't think people fear the shot, I certainly don't. I look forward to it and it being a technically good shot. I mentally pat myself on the back with each good shot, saying something like 'well done'. Ditto if I abort a shot. Again this is another part of the mental training. If you truly fear the outcome you are being very negative before you start and you are almost expecting a bad shot. Think the opposite, be positive, feel the buzz of performing a good shot and relish in it. You can then go through the competition (and training) looking forward to each shot, and of course ignoring what's gone on previously.

Rob.

I somewhat agree with Ruig, but I would rather state it in a more positive way.

As competitors, we put ourselves "on the line" (pardon the pun) every time we come to a match and fire a shot. We are attempting to perform at our highest levels, exceed our averages and compete successfully (against ourselves and our previous efforts).

This can produce a sense of fear, anxiety, nervousness or whatever. I prefer to call it being anxious and "aware of the moment". The shooter, like a diver on the high board, senses this moment and must master it and himself to perform at his best. We can see the shot coming; we know it will be the documentation of our efforts that will appear as a hole on the target.

We need to defer to our training and mental process to remove the expectation that this "fear" feeds on and replace it with something else. Trust in the shot process, belief in our trigger press, awareness of what our vision is telling us about the shot. Basically move from expectations to performance.

In other words, train when you train; perform when you shoot; analyze when you’re done with either. Expectations and judgment do not come to the firing line, but are done away from the range as part of the "planning for training" process.

Just my < 2 cents on this subject.

Cecil Rhodes

It's a fascinating emotional balance, isn't it? You need to be calm without being so relaxed that your grip gets sloppy. You need to be genuinely confident and have a positive self-image, but without being cocky or losing concentration on the results. You need to concentrate without applying too much pressure on yourself emotionally, or so that you jump on the shot or mash the trigger. And, yes, you can lose it in the blink of an eye.

Calm, confident concentration. Maybe that's a mantra.

Concentrate so completely on executing the proper behavior for each shot.

That way, you will have no nervousness; you won't even be aware of where (or who) you are.

Yeah, right- sounds easy.

Not easy.

Simple.

Big Difference!

I find (in my log book) the word "Distracted" or "Loss of Mental Focus" seems to occur right around the same time crappy performance results also appear.

"Nervous" or "Jitters" never appears any more.

*Sigh*

Steve Swartz

Like Steve says if you concentrate 100% on the correct execution of each shot, there should be no room for anything else. Sure there may be nerves before a shoot but practice removing them and they dissapear. If you start getting nervous or loosing focus then stop, sit down, go for a walk or whatever. If you have room for stray thoughts then you are not concentrating fully when it matters and you will be distracted. If you are then you can expect a poor shot.

I tend to think cocky is OK but just to yourself. To others I prefer to display confidence and self belief - if you don't believe in yourself then you almost certainly have the wrong mental attitude.

Rob.

Perhaps "cocky" isn't the right word, but it's close. Over-confident? Thinking it's easy and not staying mentally focused because of it? I'm sure you know what I mean. I'm not referring to an interaction with others, but rather one's internal attitude during the act of shooting.

I have to agree that there is something going on with the subconscious and the act of the gun going off for me, too. I certainly experience a significant difference between dry fire and live fire.

I suspect it has more to do with conflicting instructions in the brain than it does with fear, especially after you have fired many thousands of rounds. Your subconscious thinks it's supposed to keep the sights still when the gun goes off. It knows that this is simply impossible, because the sights lift when the gun goes off, so it wants to pull down at the same time as the gun fires. This at least accounts for a classic flinch. Let's face it, our subconscious isn't very intelligent in an intellectual sense. It just doesn't get that it's okay for the sights to lift because the bullet's already gone.

If you think that this doesn't happen, I would suggest shooting .45 one-handed for a while. It's like a magnifying glass of what goes wrong for me. You soon learn that anticipating the shot is not a good thing! Those little spasms that result in flyers in .22 can be big jerks with .45 ACP if you aren't in control of your emotions and don't get a surprise break. I just love shooting .45, but the tendency of the subconscious to pull the sights down when the gun goes off is always lurking there waiting for me to slip up.