TargetTalk

imac wrote:none of us would wish someone to click a camera have a phone ring etc etc such is the level of concentration is shooting any different, not at all. Would golfers be able to deal with clapping cameras phones ringing, I guess if they had too they would adapt. I don't mind the clapping talking and music but the cow bells and horns are a joke a BAD JOKE.

Well this is the thing with those utterly silent environments - someone sneezing suddenly becomes a major distraction, someone dropping an allen key on the concrete floor rings out in the silence of the hall. A noisier environment that has a background "hum" hides those transient noises and paradoxically tends to be far easier to concentrate in than a hushed, mostly silent environment.

I've seen people at clubs complain that someone "walked behind them a bit loudly" when they were shooting and that they were "distracted".

Well suck it up, because if you go to any match, not only are you going to have ROs and possibly spectators milling around behind the firing point, those ROs and Jury Members may also come and stand right behind you if they think you are infringing a rule and are trying to get a better look at whether your sling is touching your rifle or wanting to check the 30-degree rule on your supporting arm. If you're that sensitive, then you're not a robust competitor and you're not going to get very far.

It's no surprise that Germany puts out some very solid shooters who have come up through the experience of noisy Bundesliga matches with ongoing commentary and spectator noise. They have had to develop the mental discipline to tune out everything around them.

To that end, to a well-trained athlete cheering and noise in a finals hall should just be "noise", and for precisely that reason my squad train with the radio and music on in the background, we have a rule that we don't whisper or hush ourselves on the range - if you're having a conversation, it's up to the people shooting to tune it out - because in a match you might experience coaches/athletes/ROs/Jury Members having conversations within earshot of you, and tuning it out is your problem.


The big exceptions I make is that vuvuzelas, air-horns and other artificial noise-makers are just obnoxious things carried by obnoxious people who should be thrown out.

Hemmers wrote:The big exceptions I make is that vuvuzelas, air-horns and other artificial noise-makers are just obnoxious things carried by obnoxious people who should be thrown out.

I think there are only a very few who want complete silence ... a majority are in your corner here. The horns and stuff like that, as well as stomping on a flimsy floor (read upper range at the OTC) are too much.

We actually had the guys in ourrecent JO final ask for music the whole way thru ... only dimming the music for the announcer. They know what they face in Europe and are actively asking the ROs and organizers to turn up the music (and the BEAT too!).
They thought my 60's music was too tame for them. (poor upbringing! :o )

Hemmers wrote:

imac wrote:none of us would wish someone to click a camera have a phone ring etc etc such is the level of concentration is shooting any different, not at all. Would golfers be able to deal with clapping cameras phones ringing, I guess if they had too they would adapt. I don't mind the clapping talking and music but the cow bells and horns are a joke a BAD JOKE.

Well this is the thing with those utterly silent environments - someone sneezing suddenly becomes a major distraction, someone dropping an allen key on the concrete floor rings out in the silence of the hall. A noisier environment that has a background "hum" hides those transient noises and paradoxically tends to be far easier to concentrate in than a hushed, mostly silent environment.

I've seen people at clubs complain that someone "walked behind them a bit loudly" when they were shooting and that they were "distracted".

Well suck it up, because if you go to any match, not only are you going to have ROs and possibly spectators milling around behind the firing point, those ROs and Jury Members may also come and stand right behind you if they think you are infringing a rule and are trying to get a better look at whether your sling is touching your rifle or wanting to check the 30-degree rule on your supporting arm. If you're that sensitive, then you're not a robust competitor and you're not going to get very far.

It's no surprise that Germany puts out some very solid shooters who have come up through the experience of noisy Bundesliga matches with ongoing commentary and spectator noise. They have had to develop the mental discipline to tune out everything around them.

To that end, to a well-trained athlete cheering and noise in a finals hall should just be "noise", and for precisely that reason my squad train with the radio and music on in the background, we have a rule that we don't whisper or hush ourselves on the range - if you're having a conversation, it's up to the people shooting to tune it out - because in a match you might experience coaches/athletes/ROs/Jury Members having conversations within earshot of you, and tuning it out is your problem.


The big exceptions I make is that vuvuzelas, air-horns and other artificial noise-makers are just obnoxious things carried by obnoxious people who should be thrown out.

Totally agree but if this Junior World Cup is anything to go by, the ISSF seems to not care about the obnoxious stuff like the guy with the horn and the other guy yelling out noises to a similar startling effect as an air horn either.

im not a shooter but my daughter is...

in the short time of her competing (since Sept 14) shes never made a "real" finals (i.e. top 8 shooters)...

she shoots at Camp Perry Ohio (Air Rifle) pretty often and they have finals. one competitor actually turned around and announced to the spectators that cheering for your favorite shooter, cheering good shots, moaning over bad shots was not only accepted but EXPECTED. granted no on had brought any of the nasty horns but there were a few people who attempted to "cheer and clap"...

at the Camp Perry Open they have a "super final". teams bring noisemakers, and they whoop and holler and blast loud music over the PA system. i find it really distasteful but it is what it is...

i saw some video of a finals match (from a couple of years ago) and i watched all of about 12 seconds of it because it reminds me of the obnoxious soccer matches ive come across while channel surfing...

totally agree it is ridiculous that this is allowed (and even encouraged!) to happen. We've all seen the OUTCRY and OUTRAGE when one person has made a relatively quiet comment at the tennis or golf - and now we have people BLOWING HORNS during a sport of IMMENSE CONCENTRATION.

W T F !!!!

Each federation has a rep who talks/advises or helps write rules for the ISSF.
For those of you who have not taken the time to learn who they are, and make your feelings and comments known to them, how can you think this will change.

Here in the USA it's Gary Anderson. Make polite comments/requests. On the other topic of considered rule changes, the same goes. I'm a small PITA to them ... I'm a small junior club coach.
ATHLETES ... this effects you even more directly ... contact them ... otherwise you might as well step out on your back porch and scream to the moon.

I was at Camp Perry one time and a parent leaned over and told me that I was whispering to loud. I proceeded to tell him that there is nothing in the rules about whispering and that I could even talk in a normal voice if I felt like it. I also told him that if me whispering twenty feet away away from his son was going to ruin his concentration, then his son had better never shoot in Europe. He didn't seem to happy with me :-(

There's a big difference between a club shooter being distracted by someone talking behind them and an elite level rifle shooter having to cope with the noise and distractions of an international final. If you can't cope with distractions then I'm sorry but you're not going to be able to compete at the highest level.

The crowd interaction at the Commonwealth Games shooting events were a real highlight of the event, a dead silent finals hall is just another nail in the coffin of shooting as a viable sport.

Gutterz wrote:There's a big difference between a club shooter being distracted by someone talking behind them and an elite level rifle shooter having to cope with the noise and distractions of an international final. If you can't cope with distractions then I'm sorry but you're not going to be able to compete at the highest level.

The crowd interaction at the Commonwealth Games shooting events were a real highlight of the event, a dead silent finals hall is just another nail in the coffin of shooting as a viable sport.

I know that there is a big difference between club shooter and World Cup contender but being upset about me whispering to a person next to me when there son is shooting 20 feet away is a little on the strange side.

Modena wrote:totally agree it is ridiculous that this is allowed (and even encouraged!) to happen. We've all seen the OUTCRY and OUTRAGE when one person has made a relatively quiet comment at the tennis or golf

Whilst there is certainly a disparity, I personally think that's an issue with Golf and Tennis, not the other way round. You see these highly paid players throwing a tantrum because someone coughed - damn well get used to it and get on with it. Wimbledon is in the city. Under the flight-path for Heathrow. Aircraft, traffic, police sirens, cheering from neighbouring courts. Even on golf courses out in rural areas, your green might well be holding their breath, but if the guy makes a long putt from the next one over, you're sure as hell going to hear the crowd hollering.

As I say, artificial noise-makers should be out, but I despair when I see world-class players throwing a toddler tantrum over some slight coughing or something. If you can't play other than in perfect silence, then you don't deserve the 6-figure cheque at the end of it. The prize fund is big because there are big sponsors, and the sponsors are there because of the crowds. Which means your prize fund is being paid for by the crowds. Which means the competitors need to deal with it. Or go amateur.

TraLfaz wrote:I was at Camp Perry one time and a parent leaned over and told me that I was whispering to loud. I proceeded to tell him that there is nothing in the rules about whispering and that I could even talk in a normal voice if I felt like it. I also told him that if me whispering twenty feet away away from his son was going to ruin his concentration, then his son had better never shoot in Europe. He didn't seem to happy with me :-(

Crikey, that's taking things to extremes! I guess you get the helicopter parents in all sports though. We certainly have a few bringing their offspring to matches in the UK.

Gutterz wrote:There's a big difference between a club shooter being distracted by someone talking behind them and an elite level rifle shooter having to cope with the noise and distractions of an international final. If you can't cope with distractions then I'm sorry but you're not going to be able to compete at the highest level.

To be honest, even a club shooter needs to have a level of resilience. I mean, if your club has more than one range, you may have a very different style of shooting going on next door. I've been shooting 50m Prone and had sudden staccato blasts of RF Pistol go off not 50metres away on the 25M range. That's a distraction that club shooters have to contend with - even in the UK where cartridge pistols are (mostly) out, you have people blatting away with semi-auto rifles (what we call Lightweight Sport Rifle), and essentially random bursts of noise coming from outside the range.

I always find it amazing how people will shoot through that and then turn around and have a shit-fit about someone having a quiet conversation at the back of the firing point or "walking a bit loudly".

TraLfaz wrote:

Gutterz wrote:There's a big difference between a club shooter being distracted by someone talking behind them and an elite level rifle shooter having to cope with the noise and distractions of an international final. If you can't cope with distractions then I'm sorry but you're not going to be able to compete at the highest level.

The crowd interaction at the Commonwealth Games shooting events were a real highlight of the event, a dead silent finals hall is just another nail in the coffin of shooting as a viable sport.

I know that there is a big difference between club shooter and World Cup contender but being upset about me whispering to a person next to me when there son is shooting 20 feet away is a little on the strange side.

That is quite bizarre, I agree. Big difference as well between background noise and someone chattering in your ear. For example, at the Scottish national meeting you can hear background chatter from behind the firing points and nobody has any problem. However, if someone was on the next firing point to me chatting loudly to their friends it would be impolite at best.

Hemmers wrote:The big exceptions I make is that vuvuzelas, air-horns and other artificial noise-makers are just obnoxious things carried by obnoxious people who should be thrown out.

Agreed 100%. They ruin the enjoyment of the final for the other spectators, even if you ignore the effect on the finalists themselves. One in particular I remember blotting out some of the commentary at Maribor last year. He did well to not have the horn permanently installed.

In general though, I find it more difficult if the range is quiet and there's one person I can hear. That can happen pretty often here in Ireland since most of the ranges are tiny so the other competitors are relatively close to you and you know them, know their voices and they might even be commenting to another friend of yours about how you're shooting. Shooting on a big, busy range with lots of people milling around and making noise is much easier in comparison to that.

Finals, well, I guess they're different. I've shot plenty of them, but all except one of them had only a handful of spectators and none of them were particularly noisy. Some audible reactions to finalists throwing a shot, but nothing much more than that. The commentary can be a little distracting (I've had commentators make me laugh) and you can't blot them out since they're the same volume as the range commands, so there's a certain amount of distraction that you must plan for. It's not reasonable to look for "library rules" from a finals audience.

I'm only a spectator to this as I try to watch the ISSF finals on YouTube as they come up, but there are some matches where about 30 seconds into the video I give up. I don't mind the clapping and cheering, but I'm not going to listen to a vuvuzela in my ear for 30 minutes. If they really want people to watch these matches on TV or online, then I think they should keep the horns and noise makers out of the range.

The elite can handle talking, clapping, cheering, and even the horns, but as a spectator I cannot.