TargetTalk

Does anyone remember the thread from a couple of years back in which someone (was it Mark Briggs?) reported getting a grip fitting in Italy? I believe it was the Pardini gripmaker who did the fitting. It was reported that the gripmaker advised extending the palm shelf back as far as possible for maximum support.

I've never been able to do this due to a bone spur in my hand. However I once bought an AP grip that had been used extensively in international competition by a US team member. It must have passed inspection many times even though the palm shelf had a big hunk of additional wood glued on to the rear. In order for me to use it, I had to cut off over 1 inch of wood.

Bottom line: cosi fan tutti.

FredB

Some countries/programs/coaches like to "press" the rules and interpretations of them.

Well, that's just sad.

However, if you can't win within the rules as written (even with over a billion people and virtually unlimited resource), and

if you must win at all costs

then, you must use whatever advantage you can within the rules as interpretted/enforced in order to gain an edge.

Sad- but then again, all things condsidered . . .

Steve Swartz wrote:Some countries/programs/coaches like to "press" the rules and interpretations of them.

Well, that's just sad.

However, if you can't win within the rules as written (even with over a billion people and virtually unlimited resource)" . . .

In view of Fred's earlier post are we talking the USA here or China? - I'm not too well up on population statistics!

Steve Swartz wrote:Some countries/programs/coaches like to "press" the rules and interpretations of them.
Well, that's just sad.
However, if you can't win within the rules as written (even with over a billion people and virtually unlimited resource), and
if you must win at all costs
then, you must use whatever advantage you can within the rules as interpretted/enforced in order to gain an edge.
Sad- but then again, all things condsidered . . .

I have not noticed any correlation between nationality and "'press' the rules and interpretations of them", and I do get to see a fair bit of ISSF Championships / Olympics at the officiating end of things.
It would seem to me to be an individual thing and definitely a lack of familiarity with the rules (despite rule 8.1.2) from the shooter and the coach.

In relation to the original post for this thread, it often takes fairly close inspection of individual grips to ensure that they comply - a superficial inspection (particularly from the off-side of the grip, as in the photo) is often deceptive.

Spencer

Kiwi38 wrote:

Steve Swartz wrote:Some countries/programs/coaches like to "press" the rules and interpretations of them.

Well, that's just sad.

However, if you can't win within the rules as written (even with over a billion people and virtually unlimited resource)" . . .

In view of Fred's earlier post are we talking the USA here or China? - I'm not too well up on population statistics!

If you believe that the photographs show the true position, which I doubt, then it makes no difference. The US and Chinese shooters appear to be equally guilty.

think there was a korean in there as well?

I found if one person is able to exploit the rules and get away with it, it becomes a free for all until it is stopped.

In running boar there was no rule on barrel length, one world cup a guy rocked up with a 2mtr barrel extension, and got on the podium.
next w/c half the feild had super long barrel extensions. then came an errata to the rules, max 1mtr from the breach I think?
so you guessed it, next came long bits water pipe jammed into the stock, extending well past the barrel, then another new rule.

now the original inventor has gone away and devised these long antena things extending straight down from the barrel about 500mm, and splayed out like a tripod, after finishing on the podium again, came another new rule.
not to mention it twanged like a tuning fork every time he fired the .22

next he came back with long round weights mounted under the barrel, within the rules, but not as successful, so nobody copied him.

or the guys with their scopes so high the shot was taken with the rifle butt still in the ready postion, below the top of their hip.
were do you think chin guns came from, running boar.

I was not much better, one modification to the rules was because I took the screws out of the butt plate, dropped the plate down and just put the top screw into the bottom hole, and mounted my shoulder onto the stock, using the top of the butt plate as a butt hook. that required a few rule modifications, only took me a minute. meant my lift was 100mm shorter and now had a stop.

in part of equipment control, officials had to locate the top of your hip, and mark your jacket so officials could see clearly if you breached the rules on the firing line. and they enforced it.

then they required rules on lenght and width of the tape as guys would fit really wide stuff.
next some guys held the stock well away from the body so the officials couldnt tell exactly if it was ok or not, it wasnt, thats why they did it, but officials wouldnt rule on it. so new rule, gun must be touching body in ready position.

maybe the answer is the equipment control has to feel and locate the wrist, mark it for the officials so there is a definative rule to act upon.

evolution of the rule book

Great information, Bryan! I never shot Running Boar, however, it sure was interesting reading and I like your "evolution" coinage.
Ben

Cheating your ass !!

I hold my IZZY, look at it from both sides. I have the same picture as the photo. At that angle, it looks like it, but in fact my wrist is completely off shelf.

Accusing the olympic level judges of incompetency on that angled photo, what a hubris !!

Simple word, NONSENSE !!

Whats "hubris" guest ?

deadeyedick wrote:Whats "hubris" guest ?

Hubris - arrogant pride or presumption
(The Oxford English Dictionary)

Thank you David...you are a gentleman...and a scholar.

deadeyedick wrote:Thank you David...you are a gentleman...and a scholar.

No, I just have a dictionary (with my ISSF rule books) next to my computer. The only thing you need to know is how to find information quickly ;-)

David Levene wrote:

deadeyedick wrote:Thank you David...you are a gentleman...and a scholar.

No, I just have a dictionary (with my ISSF rule books) next to my computer. The only thing you need to know is how to find information quickly ;-)

Even easier/quicker to type the word into the Google window at the top of my browser page. :-)

although hubris is not a noun... so perhaps shouldnt have an 'a' in front of it.

yours

President of the Pedant Society

edster99 wrote:although hubris is not a noun...

It is I'm afraid.

"Incompetency" no.

Fear, inertia, and complacency; yes.

Very few (if any) judges would have the moral courage to blow the whistle on something like this.

Steve Swartz wrote:"Incompetency" no.

Fear, inertia, and complacency; yes.

Very few (if any) judges would have the moral courage to blow the whistle on something like this.

Not sure I agree with that. It's no big deal to make such an observation at equipment control, and state that the grip requires modifying. To do so mid competition is another matter.

Rob.

there is also the /practice training sessions (8.9.6.5.1).
a lot of things are picked up then.

Spencer

A google search turns up more pictures of Pang Wei shooting with the same pistol during the Beijing Olympics. Although I haven't found a picture taken from the right side, his grip appear to be a lot less suspicious in some of the pictures than in the original post:

the bottom photo looks ok. maybe?