TargetTalk

Alex:

Case 1: I think most of us also have the attitude of "There are no secrets" and if anything we say can help other shooters beat us- great! (David Levene, Ed Hall, and others too numerous to mention come to mind)

At least those of us who participate in *this forum* feel that way.

Case 2: As to those who could contribute to the forum and don't- I harbor no bad feelings. Take a look at the USAS team member blogs area. It would be easy to think that the top shooters "don't like to share" because "the successful do not enjoy company" but I don't think that's the case. Maybe I'm naive. I just think they are too busy shooting tens to waste any time talking about shooting tens; especially to those who don't want to listen.

[I have friends who kid me about my masochism for all the time I waste and crap I take for putting my thoughts and ideas out there in public all the time. Maybe it's a disease.]

On the other hand

Case 3: We do ocasionally get those "contributors" who are all hat and no cattle; in other words "Follow Me I Have All The Answers" but then don't actually provide any in this forum!

That's a different story. I really can't wrap my brain around that either. It can't be the money . . . a guy like Brian Zins is trying to turn coaching into a way to put bread on the table, but he will gladly share *details* about technique etc. for free; all you have to is ask, and be sincerely dedicated to improving your performance. Others over the years in this forum make a lot of noise about helping others, but then don't actually provide any meat/potatoes substance. [Chet Alert!]


But back to the intriguing point you raised that started my tangential rant-Alex, that issue might be a separate thread?

"We are All In It Together" or "It's About Perfecting The Art" attitude?

versus

"It's about me winning" or "It's about me getting on the team" attitude?

Good food for thought. Thanks for raising some interesting issues. Not sure I agree with you on the magnitude fo the "destructive politics" as it exists/not today, but good points and perspective nonetheless.

Steve Swartz

I'm interested in where the subjectivity in making the Olympic team comes from. I was hoping there would be a black on white protocol such that you could plug in the results of competitions in an excel spreadsheet (conceptually speaking) and it will tell you who makes the team / who's going on the next world cup, who's going to the Olympic games, etc.

So at the end of the day the competitor's job is to perform, as opposed to "know the right people"

There is a published process available on the USAS web site for team selection, and selection for travel to the international matches (inlcuding the olympics).

While hard to read and figure out (it is, after all, a "Brobdignagian" process full of steam calliopes and mirrors) it is spelled out.

I personally know of only a few cases where the *current* rules have been bent/broken.

Issue 1: We can certainly argue about whether or not the published process itself is "broken" (IMHO it is broken).

Issue 2: Is the process being followed?

Perhaps both issues were problems "several years back" (yes I have heard stories); but where do we stand today?

Steve Swartz

Steve Swartz wrote: While hard to read and figure out (it is, after all, a "Brobdignagian" process full of steam calliopes and mirrors) it is spelled out.


Steve Swartz

You are correct, it's always been spelled out. However in real life it goes beyond your steam calliopes and distorted mirrors and becomes the living instantiation of "The Futurological Congress" by Stanislaw Lem.

Meanwhile the USOC wonders and has any right to wonder why no one in pistol is making finals. I mean, a first Olympics can be daunting and from what I have seen most shooters can't be expected to medal in their first, so the first is for "seasoning" or "experience" but how the frig can a shooter go to three or four of the things and never make finals?

The "we're all in this together" and "what matters is to improve the art" is where I always came from and wow did I ever feel like I came from an alternative reality. I've fallen on my face a few times in matches but basically, if you're going to go there, might as well get into the finals to get more shooting in! It's a self-respect thing.

Alex_c wrote: Meanwhile the USOC wonders and has any right to wonder why no one in pistol is making finals. I mean, a first Olympics can be daunting and from what I have seen most shooters can't be expected to medal in their first, so the first is for "seasoning" or "experience" but how the frig can a shooter go to three or four of the things and never make finals?

Have you ever thought that the reason is that the guys there just ain't good enough ? Now they may be the best and in many cases most experienced, but if they ain't putting in the kind of scores required to make the finals then they aren't going to get into them, never mind medal.

I would suggest the problem is partly a lack of good new shooters coming through and raising the bar, and maybe something missing from a coaching perspective, but I'm guessing.

Lets also not forget it's no mean feat to be 8th, or better in the world, especially when the vast majority of your rivals are probably 'professional' shooters nowadays.

Rob.

RobStubbs wrote: Have you ever thought that the reason is that the guys there just ain't good enough ? Now they may be the best and in many cases most experienced, but if they ain't putting in the kind of scores required to make the finals then they aren't going to get into them, never mind medal.

I would suggest the problem is partly a lack of good new shooters coming through and raising the bar, and maybe something missing from a coaching perspective, but I'm guessing.

Lets also not forget it's no mean feat to be 8th, or better in the world, especially when the vast majority of your rivals are probably 'professional' shooters nowadays.

Rob.

You are correct - the guys/gals who are going are just not good enough, as shooters. The ones who are, or are developing into, good enough, don't have the political "pull". That's the problem, in pistol it's politics not performance. I started off on the wrong foot by beating Don Nygord's daughter in 2003, for instance.

In rifle and shotgun, it's based on performance. That's why we win shotgun and rifle medals.

That's why I suggest we put a rifle or shotgun coach in charge of pistol - they can always look in a book to see how to hold a pistol, a rifle or shotgun coach will be used to choosing athletes based on winning. We're already doing better in pistol with a running target coach.

And yes it is no mean feat to even make 8th place. I think the USOC recognizes this. However in pistol we've been placing far, far below that.

Alex: You ability to insert both feet in your mouth at one time was your downfall. Things have not changed I guess. Any member of this forum just need to reach ut to members of the team, current and past to get the whole story on your tenure.

You should be the last one to speak ill of the team, they gave you many chances to redeem yourself. You were a fine shooter, but on a team there is no room for the way you conducted yourself.

I suggest this site adopt the practice of Slashdot and change "guest" to "anonymous coward".

Yes, I admit beating Don Nygord's daughter at the 1993 nationals was not a good idea. The really bad part is, I only wanted 4th or 3rd or so, just good enough to get onto the team.

The pistol team I have seen lacks the sense of sportsmanship any normal person learns by the age of 6. In rifle and shotgun, sportsmanship is reinforced in shooting club, 4-H, Scouts, etc., programs and on up through college and into the rifle and shotgun national and US teams. This is lacking in pistol to a shocking degree and as long as nothing is said about it, nothing will be done about it, and as long as nothing is done about it, pistol is going to continue to be a waste of USOC and sponsors' money.

You Have really done a great job of analizing the specific issues and attitudes that will be required to gain sucess at the top level of our sport. I appologise for not recognise your name. Unfortunately I thought you were one of the non competitive guest types that spend their time denegrateing the shooters that really try. [ The people Russ refers to as collectors of international competition guns] If I were you I would consider contacting the AMU and see if they would be interested in helping you get an assignment. They may be able to arrange something that would help your situation. Dont give up on the first answer if it happens to be negative. There is usually more than one path to an assignment. Good Luck and Good Shooting, Bill Horton

2650 Plus wrote:You Have really done a great job of analizing the specific issues and attitudes that will be required to gain sucess at the top level of our sport. I appologise for not recognise your name. Unfortunately I thought you were one of the non competitive guest types that spend their time denegrateing the shooters that really try. [ The people Russ refers to as collectors of international competition guns] If I were you I would consider contacting the AMU and see if they would be interested in helping you get an assignment. They may be able to arrange something that would help your situation. Dont give up on the first answer if it happens to be negative. There is usually more than one path to an assignment. Good Luck and Good Shooting, Bill Horton

Horton you will hear a lot of "who's" who will snipe away and not identify themselves in the pistol game. It's a lot less work than putting in the time and rounds and getting good enough to beat a person on the range. Sometime I'll have to write down all the things I'm supposed to have done in the US while I was off overseas shooting a world cup or something. I'm sure I've bit the head off of more than one bat.

I'm too old now to get into the Army. Special skills don't matter, the age rules are iron clad. I was at the recruiter's front door the day after the last age raise, but was just not able to do it. I'm hoping there's an age raise for Guard which will allow me to get into there and then eventually into the AMU. Too bad Krilling's not running the AMU any more, he's just a really really good guy. While I'll not stop hoping for another raise of age limits, I'm not really banking on being able to go into the AMU since the army seems to be getting all the people they need and they want them young for a reason.

In rifle or shotgun, if a shooter tried to get ahead by gossip, innuendo, dirty tricks, etc., instead of putting in the work and winning, they'd get laughed off of the team. In pistol this is the standard operating procedure. That's what needs to change. No one seems to have the guts to talk about it, and it needs to be talked about and fixed.

Times change.

I think the issue(s) today have changed.

The underlying issue is- how much does an "unlevel playing field" (due to non-performance issues) affect the abiltiy to field the best shooters?

As I see it, if the policies help the development of a sustainable pool of world-class and near world class shooters who are able to (within their own potential and desire) to excel at the world level, then the policies "work."

If, however, the policies result in a stagnation of the pool ("coddling" the chosen few, who then stagnate- while simultaneously preventing the "emergin wannabes" from achieving more), then of course the policies "don't work."

So how do we move away from policies that "don't work" to policies that "work?"

Steve Swartz

IPersonally, I am less interested in what happened back when than I am in how do we all move forward. History is valuable [and it is] only in the way it instructs the future.)

Steve Swartz wrote:
If, however, the policies result in a stagnation of the pool ("coddling" the chosen few, who then stagnate- while simultaneously preventing the "emergin wannabes" from achieving more), then of course the policies "don't work."

Exactly.

2650 Plus wrote:You Have really done a great job of analizing the specific issues and attitudes that will be required to gain sucess at the top level of our sport. I appologise for not recognise your name. Unfortunately I thought you were one of the non competitive guest types that spend their time denegrateing the shooters that really try. [ The people Russ refers to as collectors of international competition guns] If I were you I would consider contacting the AMU and see if they would be interested in helping you get an assignment. They may be able to arrange something that would help your situation. Dont give up on the first answer if it happens to be negative. There is usually more than one path to an assignment. Good Luck and Good Shooting, Bill Horton

It is noting wrong with to being "collectors of international competition guns" I'm collector too :)
I own four ISSF style pistols and only one Sig P226 :)))

Could there be a secret factor in the present selection process about being a "marketable" shooter?

If that were the case, the selections made would be very different than they have been.