TargetTalk

I have experienced the tumbling problem with .38 and .32 wadcutters.
In both cases I have tried to change the powder charges, primers and brass, but the ovalised holes still popped up. What I did discover was that with brass that came from original factory wadcutters the number of perfect round holes was remarkably higher then the reloads that were made from .38+P shells I received from a police instructor!? Apparently original WC brass had thinner walls than the .38P+.
I figured the bullet was damaged when it was squeezed in the shell. As I was reloading .38 WC, I compared the shape of the Lyman 141 grain WC with the expander I was using, also from Lyman and found out that the length of the expander was equal to the length of their cast bullet ‘s crimp groove! I had an expander turned to the whole length of the commercial hollow base WC and from then onward my .38 punched perfectly round holes!
For my .32 the same thing is true: the expander from RCBS is 11 mm long (the expanding part), the wadcutter bullet is 14.6 mm. This means that when seating the bullet there is 3.6 mm of the bullet, just at the weakest part, that is actually sized down. I can imagine that when it leaves the barrel gases escape alongside, destabilising the bullet during its flight.
Anyhow, I did the same as for the .38. I had an expander turned to the length and the diameter (.313) of the bullets I use for my Hammerli280 and they all land well.
Regards,
Guy

That would seem to agree with my theory, commercial dies just aren't intended for WC ammo.
On loading bullets can get resized as they are seated.

38+P cases would presumably have thicker walls.

A couple things I notice:
1) Any damage to the base of the bullet damages precision & accuracy.
Soft swaged bullet are most suceptable to shipping damage.

2) +P cases are progressively thicker as you approach the primer end. For the 32, Starline brass are a +P design. I have measured this with ball end micrometers. With a 98 gr Speer these cases tossed an 8 inch group at 25 m, switching to Remington cases brought it way way down. +P cases work nicely with a roundnose or a full length cartridge. They never work with deep seated WC designs

3) you can not assume that a factory powder is equal to anything else available. the pressure curve is important.

4) the pressure letdown at bullet - barrel exit can induce tipping as can rotation of the gun in recoil. I spent a lot of time with Smith 52's and I could hold tight and get a clean hole while a loose grip caused tipping

5) Factories hold tight to secrets so you will buy their product, not their parts. One secret of Factory 38 WC's is the cannelure that bites in to the bullet body giving extra bullet pull. We as reloaders can't easily achieve this feature.

best regards

Axel,
Did you get anywhere in solving your problem with tipping bullets.
I have the same problems with .32S&WL using 90gr Hornady HBWC and 1.3-1.4gr VV310.
I am waiting for a new separate crimp die as this is where I think the problem is. My Hornady seating die incorporates a crimping feature but it only puts it on one side of the case mouth because the lead-in angle is nearly a shoulder and it pushes the case to the side of least resistance I guess.

I eliminated all tumbling in my .32 by using a cylindrical expander in a separate die, instead of flaring it up in the powder die and balancing the bullet on that afterward. Now the bullets go in perfectly straight for 3/4 of their length, and the seating die only does the rest. Apparently, the base of the HBWC is staying intact like this, and holes are perfectly round now.

A cylindrical expander worked for me also in 0.32.

Could you please tell us which kind of cylindrical expander?

Just make a cylindrical plug, slightly tapered at the tip so it enters the case, the same dia as or few thou over the dia of the bullet you plan to use and the same length as the bullet.

With springback of the case it will then be just slightly under the diameter of the bullet, so will give a snug fit without damaging it.

Most die sets are intended for 0.308-0.309 bullets, so expand the case to ~0.306-0.307. Squashing a 0.314 bullet into a 0.306 case doesn't do it any good, if your barrel is 0.314 then accuracy will suffer.
Try measuring your existing expander and some expanded cases and see how they come out.

Most expanders are also intended for round nose bullets, not HBWC seated inside the case, so they are much too short.

It may be necessary to flare the case before using your homemade expander.

Also Winchester 0.32 cases are very thick walled and are hard to make work.

How deep do you go with the cylindrical expander? 1/2 bullet length? full bullet length?

Full bullet length.

JamesH wrote:Full bullet length.

yes

Thanks for your feedback. One more thing - do you crimp after seating?

Its preferable to crimp separately, ie after seating. Lee dies do both in one go.

Using a larger re-sizing die is also an option, or not resizing at all.

Its probably worth measuring your various dies, expanders, fired cases, resized cases, expanded cases etc to see where you are now.

The proof after you load is to pull a loaded round and measure the bullet diameter. It will show you if there was resizing in the dies.

My barrel is 0.312, the expander plug is 0.314, and now I'm using 0.312 bullets. I think it's ok, I must only check the expander plug's lenght, I think it's too short.

I'm nearly there now - just waiting for a new crimp die but I'll make one this weekend.
I've made a cylindrical expander. It replaces the powder drop-tube in the Dillon. The original tube has a taper for flaring the case mouth, now I've got a cylindrical expander 8.02mm diameter that goes about 12mm deep. The bullet slides in with a bit of resistance but it goes in straight. I will also try this without resizing the case in the first op.

Dillon's expander is very short, RCBS is two times longer...

Tycho wrote:I eliminated all tumbling in my .32 by using a cylindrical expander in a separate die, instead of flaring it up in the powder die and balancing the bullet on that afterward. Now the bullets go in perfectly straight for 3/4 of their length, and the seating die only does the rest. Apparently, the base of the HBWC is staying intact like this, and holes are perfectly round now.

I have followed this idea. Bought a Dillon 650 instead of my 550B and an expander die from RCBS. They have custom made but a .314 do the job well. All trouble seems to have gone. Thank you "Tycho"!
Kent