TargetTalk

Right-O!

And that's where I divergre in my opinion from Elmas (with respect to training) . . .

I believe that a shooter does not "necessarily" have to go through the process of "evolution" as I (and many, many others) go through.

This is of course, a very arguable point and I am not convinced of it either way.

Perhaps:

1) Each shooter has to go through this lengthy process of "self discovery" where various aspects of technique are seized upon as being "the Right Thing" to focus on; then abandoned as not being anywhere near as improtant as the True Best Thing etc. until they finally figure out what is really going on;

or

2) A shooter can be trained properly "from the ground up" on the right things to focus on by proper coaching, discussion, and drills- thereby short-circuiting this lengthy "self discovery process."


I would like to believe that progress can be advanced more quickly by organized and effective training (see proposition 2 above) on the "True Constraints" to proper technique.

However, just because I would *like* it to be true doesn't mean that it actually works that way.


So- what say you all- lengthy process of "Self Discovery" or "Guided Path to Enlightenment?"

Or (as usual for Life In General) "It Depends?"

Steve Swartz

Steve,
I definitely agree with your Prop. #2.
As I mentioned in an earlier thread, back when I was conducting classes for brand new shooters (general principles, not for competition), we always started with a blank sheet of paper at 10 yds with a 22 revolver fired single action and stayed with that until the student could achieve a reasonable group centered on the paper. Disabused people of the idea that they had to 'aim at the target'.

I wish I had had someone to start my pistol training that way!

Having said that, I believe that there is still a process of 'self-discovery', but that it will start at a much higher level if the student is pointed down the right path to begin with.

Fred

CR10XGuest wrote:I'l try to make this as plain as possible from my persepective.

A shooter, no matter what level, should not be preoccupied, focused, concenrating, whatever, on the sight picture unless it is during a training session for sight picture only.

Just because I mentioned that some shooters do that at various levels do that during the shot process does not mean they should. It is a problem of perception that much be overcome.

"How can I hit that little part of target at the other end of the range if I don't pay attention to the sight picture (see the target)?" Because everything that is really important to the placement of the shot takes place at the gun.
If I had the chance to train a new shooter from scratch, it would be about a year before they saw anything with a round circle on it at the other end of the range.

Cecil Rhodes

Two things :

When is the time to ignore sight picture and concentrate on sight alignment and trigger release ?

This is determined by when a shooter has , through practice ,
perfected coming down into the 'aiming area' and get settled there ..with his wobble limited to a tight circle the size of the nine ring,
and has acquired the confidence that he will 'stay put' after "letting go" of the sight picture to concentrate on sight alignment and trigger release until his shot breaks .


Concerning training a new shooter from scratch .

A good coach will not 'tell' him/her the right way . But rather, create in practice and training sessions the situations where the shooter will find out for himself the right way .


Elmas

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Re - "When is the time to ignore sight picture and concentrate on sight alignment and trigger release ?"

Why would you 'switch' from sight picture to concentrate on sight alignment and trigger release?
These are all parts of the process, not steps to progress along.

Spencer

Elmas writes (AGAIN!!)

When is the time to ignore sight picture and concentrate on sight alignment and trigger release ?

NOOOOO Elmas. The time is RIGHT NOW. There is NO acceptable time period for a shooter to wait for what you describe as "liberation"

Your suggestion that the shooter wait until he sharpens his skills in other areas . . .

This is determined by when a shooter has , through practice ,
perfected coming down into the 'aiming area' and get settled there ..with his wobble limited to a tight circle the size of the nine ring,
and has acquired the confidence that he will 'stay put' after "letting go" of the sight picture to concentrate on sight alignment and trigger release until his shot breaks .

is detrimental to the development of the overall execution of the shot process. It makes no sense to allow bad habits to take root while you "perfect" others.



The goal of any serious training is to eliminate as soon as possible any vestige of sight picture - NOW.

Sight picture is of much less importance than sight alignment and smooth trigger work. I use the blank target training as proof of that thesis. I often train AP with a blank target. And what strikes me is that how incredible tight the groupings are, sometimes just a little bigger than the 10-ring with 10-15 shots - this with very little sight reference from the actual target. Or in other words, no sight picture were interfering with sight alignment and trigger work - therefore the excellent groupings.

Keep your focus on the front sight, at all times, especially during the follow up. It is bad to glide with your eye focus towards the target during the last phase of the shot - something we all need to be reminded of from time to time.

Now, I have been reading trough all 3 pages on this subject.
To many things I agree totally, other I do not understand, yet.

Sight picture? That can be many things.

Sight picture is of much less importance than sight alignment and smooth trigger work

I think sight alignment is right here but this you do at first .Then you lock your wrist/elbow and forget alignment (it is not supposed to change, close your eyes for five sec. and you know what, it stays aligned. All movements should be from hips and shoulder. Next part is front sight and it’s relation to the target.

I often train AP with a blank target. And what strikes me is that how incredible tight the groupings are, sometimes just a little bigger than the 10-ring with 10-15 shots - this with very little sight reference from the actual target. Or in other words, no sight picture was interfering with sight alignment and trigger work - therefore the excellent groupings.

This tells you to stay away from the black, 4: th ring is OK, add some white paper under the target so it appears like a full target if you are shooting on small target (3 - 10) Shooting on a blank target does no harm but you just have to count score sooner or later anyway so get used to it. I have a feeling that shooting on a blank target might teach you to constantly adjust sight alignment with your wrist but it is certainly good for something. Dry fire against a wall is perhaps better.

To sum up:
Sight picture can be:
Rear sight - front sight and a target out of focus
Rear sight and the white parts around the front sight out of focus - front sight in focus against a target be it a white target or relative to something that just is there

Kent

Kent! I agree, very unclear.

Sight picture can mean many things. What I mean by sight picture is the black circle at the target in relation to the sights - ie, trying to aim at the target instead of focusing at the sights.

I'm wondering about what you wrote regarding locking the wrist and taking sight alignment for granted afterwards. It's a completely different technique from what I'm using. Interesting though!

Regarding shooting at blank/white targets: I think it is very productive because it isolates the shooting process to just squeeze the trigger and keeping the sights aligned. There is almost nothing to aim at. Yes, this is somewhat similar to dry fire. But doing it right means tight groupings. Tight groupings are fun, dry fire is not, IMHO ;-)

Counting scores during training does not mean much in reality. Sure, it is fun to shoot high scores. But it can also cause a lot of stress and pressure and therefore take a lot of fun out of our sport. We are all different and have different opinions. In my opinion, counting scores is something to do at real competitions, not when training.

Cheers,
Axel

Axel wrote:
I'm wondering about what you wrote regarding locking the wrist and taking sight alignment for granted afterwards.

If the front sight / rear sight does change I think the grip is to blame.
Take shooting rapid fire as an example; it is only front sight to go for. There is not time for looking at white on the side of front sight.

One thing in focus and one dimmed is OK
One, or at worst both rear and front and white and target and trigger.
That is what a beginner tries to accomplish, we know better I hope.

Counting scores during training does not mean much in reality. Sure, it is fun to shoot high scores. But it can also cause a lot of stress and pressure and therefore take a lot of fun out of our sport

Who is hiding the score during a competition? If one is not into scoring when training you are not mentally prepared for the outcome.
Stress and pressure is to be traind too.

Kent

Reinhamre wrote:

Counting scores during training does not mean much in reality. Sure, it is fun to shoot high scores. But it can also cause a lot of stress and pressure and therefore take a lot of fun out of our sport

Who is hiding the score during a competition? If one is not into scoring when training you are not mentally prepared for the outcome.
Stress and pressure is to be traind too.

Kent

We are now very off topic.

I'm not hiding scores at all. For me, who has not been into this sport that long, shooting in competitions is a lot different from training. Thats one reason why I say training scores does not say that much. It should not be any different, but it's reallity. (My AP pb in training is 574p and in competition 560p.) With experience and harder match nerves scores will be much higher. :-)

There are different kinds of people when it comes to competitions. Some, like me, shoot better in training than in competitions. Others do it the other way around - better in competitions than in training. And of course there are people that shoots about the same in competitions and in training. This is our reallity.

Cheers,
Axel

Guest wrote

The goal of any serious training is to eliminate as soon as possible any vestige of sight picture - NOW.

I think NOW for beginners is not the right time.
I still stand by what I said ....

Remember , the beauty of it all is that we ARE all different. We only meet in this game on the 'rules' and not on the 'method' !

Because there are so many roads to Rome , discussion is rewarding and educational.

Elmas

.

Steve Swartz wrote:Right-O!

And that's where I divergre in my opinion from Elmas (with respect to training) . . .

I believe that a shooter does not "necessarily" have to go through the process of "evolution" as I (and many, many others) go through.

This is of course, a very arguable point and I am not convinced of it either way.

Perhaps:

1) Each shooter has to go through this lengthy process of "self discovery" where various aspects of technique are seized upon as being "the Right Thing" to focus on; then abandoned as not being anywhere near as improtant as the True Best Thing etc. until they finally figure out what is really going on;

or

2) A shooter can be trained properly "from the ground up" on the right things to focus on by proper coaching, discussion, and drills- thereby short-circuiting this lengthy "self discovery process."


I would like to believe that progress can be advanced more quickly by organized and effective training (see proposition 2 above) on the "True Constraints" to proper technique.

However, just because I would *like* it to be true doesn't mean that it actually works that way.


So- what say you all- lengthy process of "Self Discovery" or "Guided Path to Enlightenment?"

Or (as usual for Life In General) "It Depends?"

Steve Swartz

My money of course is on " Guided Path to Enlightenment" .

That is truly the way to go .... but .... ... Who can make you go against your 'instincts' early on in your training to help shorten the process ??

It must be a coach in whom you have absolute trust .


As mentioned elsewhere on this thread , a good coach or guide will merely help us unfold through the process of "self discovery" .


Elmas

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I once coached a new shooter, talking him through each shot. At the end of the 2700 he shot a 2615. It actually scared me because I was trying to make the team. I never coached him again.We both made the team. Its not necessary to look at the target. It doesen't move. Something else was mentioned in this descussion.It had to do with natural point of aim. Try this experiment. Push a lawnmower and mow your lawn. Then ,pick up your pistol and see where your natural point of aim has settled. Simple streaching exercises will return it to the normal position. It is not foolish to draw foot prints at your firing point. Shoot tens. Bill Horton

Bill,
Thanks for bringing back this old thread. I found it helpful to recall my (and others) perceptions of the shooting process six months ago and what I am doing today to improve my shooting skills.
Fred

I will Suggest that you should establish your NPA in the center of your hold area on your target. Just prior to settling in that hold area you should start your trigger finger moving and never think about it again until the pistol has fired.Your mind is now completely free to deal with alligning the sights. Build a mental image of perfectly alligned sights through training. Strive to recreate that image for the shot you are about to fire. through focussed mental concentration and precise vision .focus on the front sight. You should always start the finger moving first so as to limit the time you spend on sight allignment. After all, if you burn in an image thats what your brain will see even though that image no longer exists.It is even more important to apply pressure to the trigger first in sustained fire. If you do not the potential for a spasmotic snatch at the trigger when your mind tells you that you are running out of time.increases aubstantially .If it takes you 9 seconds to fire a string of 5 rounds you should be applying pressure on the trigger for at least 8 1/2 seconds. This is not an exageration, I am serious. Good shooting Bill Horton

Bill,
Thank you for your suggestions. When shooting BE, I try to, and am generally successful at, starting the trigger finger before I am fully settled. I use the same process for slow fire and sustained fire. Where I have difficulty is applying this principle to AP and FP, because the trigger is so much lighter. So, I don't consciously 'start' the trigger finger, but I do mentally commit to firing and then concentrate solely on refining sight alignment. Perhaps this is what people mean when they talk about letting the subconscious take over.

Fred

Here is a different 2 cents worth. I believe the pistol should fire while the shooter is concentrating on perfectING sight allignment. He/she should be so criticle of the front to rear sight relationship that there is a continuing search for perfection until after the shot is fired. Should a perception of perfection occur prior to the shot breaking there may be an overiding implus to fire while it looks good that the shooter cannot control. Good Shooting Bill Horton

. . . agree 1000% . . . uh oh!

Steve