TargetTalk

Nicole Hamilton wrote:I guess I don't see a whole lot of difference between people for whom winning is so important that they think everyone should pee in a cup and people for whom winning is so important that they'd want to use drugs to do it.

It's the same as those who think their gun should comply with the rules and those who try to covertly break those rules.
Or those who think you should start a Rapid Fire series at the ready position and those who try to start from a bit higher.

If you don't want to stick to the rules then you shouldn't be too surprised when efforts are made to enforce those rules.

I am sure that there are many shooters who just enjoy shooting without the restrictions imposed by a set of published rules. That is their choice and they are perfectly entitled to make it. If however you choose to compete under a set of published rules should you be allowed to pick and choose which of those rules you comply with. I happen to think that you should not.

Nicole Hamilton wrote:I guess I don't see a whole lot of difference between people for whom winning is so important that they think everyone should pee in a cup and people for whom winning is so important that they'd want to use drugs to do it.

What are you saying??
Sounds like you regard someone who persues excellence thru sheer hard work and commitment who wants to compete against like, and someone who bypasses this with a chemical enharnsment shoud be treated as equalls.
Did I hear you right?

[
However, when Dr. Elmas proposes that:

. . . anyone with serious 'match jitters' should be allowed some means to make him/her more comfortable as he practices the sport he enjoys.

he goes too far. In fact, if he acted in accordance with that opinion in this country, he would end up without a license and doing time somewhere.

That is not meant to be insulting to Dr. Elmas - it's an accurate assessment of the present state of the law in this country.


F. Paul in Denver

[/quote]



*smile* I said 'serious' match jitters , not the 'ordinary' match jitters most of us experience... Serious match jitters that can make shots land in a neighbours' target f'rinstance! Or the pistol keeps slipping from sweaty trembly fingers !

Perhaps my being Egyptian , with your accurate assessment of the current political climate in the Yoo Ess , they'll make me do time in Guantanamo ( for helping people with guns ) !


Elmas

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Mmmmm,

Gone a wee bit off-track here. NO PROBLEMO especially as I think an interesting point has been raised and discussed, largely in an informative manner by people who us beginers can look up to and respect (at least as far as their shooting skills are concerned).

I like this forum mainly because most of the issues about shooting are dealt with sensitively, diplomatically and informatively.

he he.

Thanks to all the posters - I guess the answer to the original question is "time at the coal-face = coal in the bag" and...


...don't take drugs and dig coal. ; )

David Levene wrote:It's the same as those who think their gun should comply with the rules and those who try to covertly break those rules.
Or those who think you should start a Rapid Fire series at the ready position and those who try to start from a bit higher.

The difference is the degree of intrusion needed to enforce rules regarding the gun or your position vs. the composition of your urine. I place a higher valuation on privacy than you do. But also, I suspect we have different expectations of how much difference drugs can really make. If we did away with the banned substance list, I guess you expect only athletes taking drugs you view as "unfair" could ever win; I'm not so sure.

Nicole Hamilton wrote:I guess you expect only athletes taking drugs you view as "unfair" could ever win

On the contrary, I am pretty sure that pure skill and talent would normally prevail. I am equally sure however that there would be times when a persons intrinsic skill and talent would be artificially boosted by the use of drugs. No matter how you look at it, unless the rules are changed or followed, that is cheating.

I just happen to believe that if you voluntarily take part in a competition then you should follow the rules of that competition. You are certainly giving the impression that you do not agree.


Edit note: the words "or followed" added.

which leaves us in the 'agree to disagree' situation...

however, we (the sport) have a responsibility to provide a safe environment - do away with the anti-doping requirements and we start to chip away at the safe environment

Nicole's sweeping " I guess you expect only athletes taking drugs you view as "unfair" could ever win; I'm not so sure" would dismiss that some would (have?) win with chemical enhancement

Spencer

Spencer wrote:which leaves us in the 'agree to disagree' situation...



Spencer

Why do we A L L have to agree or disagree ?.... discussion is not about a conclusion , its about everyone airing his opinion , and all of us benefitting from hearing the views of our colleagues.

Some may agree on the principle of the thing , but have reservations about degree or means of implementation.


However , I do think there is one thing every single person on here would agree to : That we all hate unfairness and find cheating deplorable and unsportsmanlike .


Elmas

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I personally detest the idea that any one would resort to subterfuge just to win a pistol match. worse, I am convinced that I must train the way I shoot in competition. In training ,I discovered that when I felt sick and continued to shoot through the illness my scores suffered very little degredation. If I medicated the fiine control necessary to shoot my best failed me. You will note that I dont speculate but simply relay personel experiences. I teach all shooters that there is no substitute for using your natural, undistorted mind to deal with match nerviousness. Any thing else is just a detoure into disaster. There is no such thing as a win pill. Pay close attentation to Mr Swartz.

this is an old thread, what you draggin it up for bill?

yes you need to train matches, not train to train
yes there is such a thing as a win pill, thats why we have to piss in the bottle.
yes the exemption forms are long winded.
the cost of testing is high, around $1000 for a full test, So different things are tested for each sport to reduce costs, I think the ISSF consults with wada on what is tests for.
not many get tested anyway, but bigger events have a random selection as well as the medalists.

elmas has seen the error of his initial ideas. even though you can see where he was coming from.
Ive seen people break down, its painful for them.

Nichole, you really lost the plot. it is very obvious you have never pissed in a bottle with your pants down and someone with their head between your knees to check it is coming from you, us guys have it a bit easier.

what about in a tiny room, no toilet, with a little container, by the time Im ready, I need a big container. or once was a female doctor on duty.

anyway, I filled a lot of bottles, hate it, but rather me doing it than someone else.

its your responsibility what you put in your body. if you get tested, you better know what you have had.
now a positive result is bad for all shooting, not just you!
PS the list is always being added to, so you need to keep up with new additions.
also PH is checked, if no good you have to provide another sample.
and they dont like it when you spill some on their work bench.


Mike, hope your are getting over your jitters.
dont worry to much, its normal. over time you learn to deal with it.
I get more nervous having someone watching me piss in a bottle than shooting, must need to train more!

imho
bryan

bryan wrote:this is an old thread, what you draggin it up for bill?


elmas has seen the error of his initial ideas. even though you can see where he was coming from.
Ive seen people break down, its painful for them.

Nichole, you really lost the plot. it is very obvious you have never pissed in a bottle with your pants down and someone with their head between your knees to check it is coming from you, us guys have it a bit easier.



Mike, hope your are getting over your jitters.
dont worry to much, its normal. over time you learn to deal with it.
I get more nervous having someone watching me piss in a bottle than shooting, must need to train more!

imho
bryan

The Medical Profession are really there to alleviate suffering .
My error in offering help where 'it is not allowed' gladly , has been taken in the right way .

I just think that worry about pissing in a cup after a match may , in the case of an overly 'sensitive individual' intrude on a competitors concentration during the match . Visions of a stern and menacing looking official standing threateningly with a cup in hand and pointing at his flies may override his sight picture.


To bypass all the "dread" and "humiliation" of having to pee under the visual scrutiny of some official , why dont they just take Blood Samples?.... Urine after all is a filtration of some of the blood's components..In fact anything we find in Urine is already there in the bloodstream .
So all we need do is roll up our sleeve with dignity as opposed to pulling our pants down in shame .

Elmas

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There's also a not so uncommon but rarely talked about disorder that prevents some individuals from peeing in a cup under scrutiny, or, in severe cases, only being to commence #1 at home. When it comes to competition-related drug testing, the only option those people have is not competing.

I know someone that trains 20 hours a week and shoots >570AP that won't even consider competing at higher level because of the above. (Yes, that'd be me.)

As long as we are all "sharing" here . . . I can relate to the "Bashful Bladder Syndrome" (yeah that's what he Docs really call it!).

20+ years in the military forced me to develop "coping" mechanism. I have to hyperhydrate to the point where it is pretty serious physical distress in order to give a sample.

"Guest" may want to consider this option. It's not that big an inconvenience to just have a few extra water bottles available and a willingness to try the patience of the collectors. Caffeinated sodas makes a great chaser . . . pound down a quart or two of water, followed by a can or two of mountain dew . . . voila! Bonus time: never a problem filling a specimen cup or ten. Good thing they test *after* the competition. Some days I think it would just be easier if they could catheterize us (ouch!).

And Elmas, we must do this because the expense of a blood test (vs. urine test) is much higher. Even if the blood test is more sensitive, more reliable, and saves many of us personal embarrassment (whatever) anything to save our NGBs and WADA/USADA a buck or two per sample (well, the cost difference is actually considerable . . . just think of requiring a trained phlebotomist* for each test . . . ) and it's easy to see why we must follow urine testing protocol.

Steve Swartz

*actually during many matches I wish they had a trained lobotomist standing by!

It's all about nerves and the ability to control them. I've never been asked to provide a urine sample but it's been done at competitions I've shot in. I'm quite happy to pee in a bottle although I may well struggle to do so quite on demand - but like Steve says, I can just drink loads after the match if needed.

The protocol is that the testers normally keep well out of the way until the end of the competition and then select their 'subjects'.

In general some people cope with nerves by never putting themselves in a position to be 'shot down'. That does mean though that can't ever be in the opposite position of being the winner. My philosophy is that you take the knocks when they happen and learn from them and then move on. Life throws in as many knocks so you may as well get used to them and go for glory. We are however all different and some people don't want to do that - which is fine.

The bottom line is don't forget to enjoy your shooting, that is after all why we all do it.

Rob.

Rob.

the answer to the problem is beer, once you drunk enough you dont care who you give a sample to.
they actually used to supply beer, then went to light beer, now none.

issue was it was a test to see who could drink the most beer before having to provide a sample, as it was not uncommon to have 10 in the waiting room. didnt take long to empty the fridge.
and remember you could take someone with you, so there was no trouble finding someone, long as the fridge was full!

drink to much or little, and you might have to supply a second sample if the first fails the PH test, very dark/clear will be close to fail.

collectors have to stay with you till you provide a suitable sample, have heard of 24hrs, so I have been anywhere from 1-4 hrs. seen some go 6.
a few hrs is common, just dont expect your international flight to wait for you! and often the team bus back to the hotel. take the coach with you, that way the bus will still be there.


So what did mike want again?

bryan

Back to the initial question: stress and jitter.

When I started shooting, I discovered that my scores were always better when shooting in the afternoon or evening than early in the morning.

Based on that I tried to do some other physical actvity before shooting like jogging, bicycle...

Now I always try to do that before a match so that I arrive at the match well warmed up what makes me feel more relaxed and reduce jitter.

Of course, there is a good trade off to find: too much and arriving tired at the match is also not good, each of us as to find the amount of exercise that fits his own physical condition.

mmm, thats interesting.

never recommend physical exercise before a comp.
it is better to keep calm.
waking up well before is good, like 4 hrs, mind games are good, stretching is good if you have a routine of doing it.
you need to be awake, not half asleep.

But in saying that, if exercise helps you before a comp, dont stop.
when I was fit, it wouldnt have bothered me, unlike now.

Well, shooting requires, like any sport, a good physical condition. The shooter is also an athlete.

Like several other sports (I would say, most of the sports), shooting is not a complete sport, i.e. shooting alone doesn't allow to maintain a good enough physical condition. All high level athletes practice some physical activities besides the sport they are doing.

So, another activity is required to keep the shooter fit.

Assuming the shooter has a good physical condition level, doing physical excercise before a comp will not exhaust him but help keeping him calm and will warm him up before the comp. This is also similar to other sports where warmin up is always beneficial if not an absolute must. I do not think that stretching is enough.

Again, it is a matter of finding the amount of exercise adapted to the physical condition of each shooter: not too much but also not too less.

shooting is not a complete sport, i.e. shooting alone doesn't allow to maintain a good enough physical condition

On the other hand, even if you're serious about the sport, shooting will not injure and wear out your body within a decade or less and will not turn your body into a freak of nature, and you can master your skill until Parkinson / Alzheimer sets in.

There's a saying "excercise fixes your body, and the sport destroys it". Lucky for us there are exceptions to that rule.

P.S. Not arguing or disagreeing with anyone - just thinking outloud.