TargetTalk

I just don't think they find competitive shooting to be exciting enough compared to all of the "Extreme" sports that are being forced down their throat every time they see a Mt. Dew commercial. - hans


this is relating to an earlier reply but, im 13 and i love shooting and i think its better than paintball, and all the other exteme sports, i have a lot of friends like this too

I ALSO SEE SPORTER AS A MEANS OF GETTING NEW SHOOTERS STARTED AT A LOW COST ,OUR HIGH SCHOOL TEAM WILL PARTICIPATE IN BOTH ,WE USE THE SPORTER AS A JV TEAM AND PRECISION IS THE VARSITY TEAM .WE HAVE HAD FRESHMAN COME IN AND SHOOT FOR THE VARSITY TEAM. IF YOU ALREADY HAVE THE EQUIP . WHY ARE YOU NOT HOLDING AND SHOOTING MATCHES, SARAH SMITH IS ABOUT THE ONLY SHOOTER I SEE FROM NEVADA,MAYBE THIS IS WHY YOUR LOOSEN SUPPORT ,MUST KEEP THE KIDS ACTIVE.I THINK THERE IS 18 MATCHES IN NORTHERN CALIF THIS YEAR AND THERE IS A MONTLY MATCH IN RENO S.B. I KNOW IT'S 4P,BUT STILL A MATCH

A.R.JAYNES wrote:I ALSO SEE SPORTER AS A MEANS OF GETTING NEW SHOOTERS STARTED AT A LOW COST ,OUR HIGH SCHOOL TEAM WILL PARTICIPATE IN BOTH ,WE USE THE SPORTER AS A JV TEAM AND PRECISION IS THE VARSITY TEAM ....

O.K. Now I hate you. :^} I live in Wichita KS, Wyatt Earp lived down the road in Dodge City, and we can't mention shooting in school. The other rifle coach lives in Derby KS where the boy was expelled for drawing a rifle on his notebook. His son wore his Sedgwick county shooting sports t-shirt and dad was worried he'd get expelled from the same school.

Later

Mike

Sounds like time for a new school when drawing a picture of a rifle can get one expelled. Clearly no eduacated people are on hand!

mikeschroeder wrote:

A.R.JAYNES wrote:I ALSO SEE SPORTER AS A MEANS OF GETTING NEW SHOOTERS STARTED AT A LOW COST ,OUR HIGH SCHOOL TEAM WILL PARTICIPATE IN BOTH ,WE USE THE SPORTER AS A JV TEAM AND PRECISION IS THE VARSITY TEAM ....

O.K. Now I hate you. :^} I live in Wichita KS, Wyatt Earp lived down the road in Dodge City, and we can't mention shooting in school. The other rifle coach lives in Derby KS where the boy was expelled for drawing a rifle on his notebook. His son wore his Sedgwick county shooting sports t-shirt and dad was worried he'd get expelled from the same school.

Later

Mike

Again I agree with Kate anything that gets more people participating in the shooting sports is a good thing. Not all kids who play Tee Ball go on to play college baseball either so is Tee Ball a bad thing? Still don't see the logic in badmouthing sporter shooting be it Air gun, small bore or high power. A broader base of shooters can't be bad can it??

AlaskaKate wrote:I dont believe that Sporter is in anyway a bad thing, it is GREAT for getting young kids into the sport and getting their inner position down. However, by the time highschool rolls around the kids that have been shooting sporter for a few years should be encouraged to start investing in precision. Once parents hear the words possible college scholarship it is easy to get them to shell out a couple thousand for starter equipment.
So I guess what Im saying is that sporter isnt a bad thing as long as it is used as a tool to get people into the sport and people realize that they will have to upgrade their game a bit in order to compete in college or the olympics

Contact your area / state 4H. The 4H has (in nearly all states) a shooting program. It is huge. I just scored targets for the MO State championship smallbore and there were 230 kids participating. It was a 4P outdoor match in sporter and precision. Scored about 1000 tragets. There was plenty of participation, and a variety of everything from "chipmunks" to Anschutz being used. the National Championships were held this year in MO, and it was even larger.

In addition to smallbore, there was black powder, BB gun, Air Rifle, Pistol, Trap, and Archery. Were over 1200 kids participating.
divisions were youth, Junior, and Senior. Don't know the age break, but Sr. goes to 18.

Some if these kids are now participating in local club match's and a couple are looking at college programs.

Cultivating the interest in shooting, then introduce the olympic style of shooting will get some participation. I agree with a previous poster, that sport isn's "glamorous", and requires more personal dedication than a lot of school sports. Having a program available to introduce it is a start.

I think that the "sporter" programs are a good thing. It gets people shooting formal competition who would normally not try it. As to the lack of interest in international, I primarily blame three things. First, acedemia controls our kids from 6-18 or more years of age. The NEA and school districts have determined that shooting is politically incorrect and place a stigma on those children who shoot or would like to shoot competitively. The second thing is the anti-gun bias of the news media. Back in the 50's folks didn't link the legitimate ownership and use of firearms with the criminal use of the same. The news media has caused people to make the illogical leap. The urbanization of the population has had a great impact on the way firearms are perceived, from necessary tools to weapons of the criminal element. The third thing is that the shooting sports organizations do not "get to" the general public. Many decades ago it seemed like most folks owned guns and taught their offspring about firearms. This is no longer true. The shooting sports organizations need to pick up the ball and offer introductory shooting clinics for parents and kids. They also need to have a well-run PR program to reach the average person. This will increase the general base. The shooting sports organizations also need to tap into those who do shoot and yes, hunt, to try to get them to compete in formal shooting competitions. The 4H does a pretty good job, but there need to be other organizations. IMHO U.S. Shooting does a poor job of reaching out for new shooters. It really does not even reach out to NRA competitive shooters. They are bogged down in catering to the elite international shooting community. As long as they remain with the same game plan, international shooting will continue to die-out. The NRA does push to get pro-gun candidates elected, and it recently started its own TV program, but it doesn't reach many households. The shooting organizations need to get into the living rooms, work places and schools to promote competitive shooting in its true light as a healthy, lifetime sport.

As an aside, there is a strong anti-gun movement worldwide. I recently saw a news report that Brazil will soon have a referendum on whether or not firearms will be banned. If this trend continues, there may only be "international" competitive shooting in the U.S.

To sum up, there needs to be a multi-pronged effort by the various shooting organizations:

1. Promote introductory clinics for parents and kids to introduce the shooting sports.

2. Initiate a comprehensive pro-target shooting PR campaign targeting (no pun intended) homes, work places, and schools. There also should be displays and air gun ranges set up at county fairs, state fairs, etc.

3. U.S. Shooting needs to do a better job of "reaching out" to elite shooters in other sports and in the same disciplines now sanctioned by the NRA. Is U.S. Shooting aware that there are some air pistol shooters, for example, who regularly shoot scores in the 560-570 range at NRA sanctioned events?

Misny wrote:IMHO U.S. Shooting does a poor job of reaching out for new shooters. It really does not even reach out to NRA competitive shooters.

How many here would put money on the Creedmoor Sports NRA Highpower team (G. David Tubb, Norm Houle, Ron Zerr, and Mike Belle) to clean house in any 300 Meter World Cup event?

I would.

Does USA Shooting even know who those guys are?

Does 4-H post the results of this national championship anywhere? I have not ever seen or heard of this.

PASA008 wrote:Contact your area / state 4H. The 4H has (in nearly all states) a shooting program. It is huge. I just scored targets for the MO State championship smallbore and there were 230 kids participating. It was a 4P outdoor match in sporter and precision. Scored about 1000 tragets. There was plenty of participation, and a variety of everything from "chipmunks" to Anschutz being used. the National Championships were held this year in MO, and it was even larger.

In addition to smallbore, there was black powder, BB gun, Air Rifle, Pistol, Trap, and Archery. Were over 1200 kids participating.
divisions were youth, Junior, and Senior. Don't know the age break, but Sr. goes to 18.

Some if these kids are now participating in local club match's and a couple are looking at college programs.

Cultivating the interest in shooting, then introduce the olympic style of shooting will get some participation. I agree with a previous poster, that sport isn's "glamorous", and requires more personal dedication than a lot of school sports. Having a program available to introduce it is a start.

Jose Rossy wrote:
How many here would put money on the Creedmoor Sports NRA Highpower team (G. David Tubb, Norm Houle, Ron Zerr, and Mike Belle) to clean house in any 300 Meter World Cup event?

I would.

Does USA Shooting even know who those guys are?

There are no world cup events for 300m.
Should any of those talented Highpower shooters compete at Nationals, they wouldn't medal.
No disrespect intended. The top 300m shooters wouldn't be likely to medal in highpower either. They are different games.
If the best shooters from either group dedicated lots of time and resources toward the other game, eventually some might cross over successfully. It wouldn't be the first year though.

I have alot of respect for Tubb and Houle, they are outstanding shooters in their sport, but I seriously doubt they would pass up a chance to shoot in the olympics if they could qualify.
A guy named Gary Anderson, used to shoot highpower, he was very good at it. If you look at the NRA records, you will see his name several times. Most impressive to me is the 200 15X he shot at Camp Perry in OFFHAND. I was told he also shot a 200 17X another time. But he switched over to international style shooting,He has won the world more than once, as I understand it. Most people consider him THE BEST (at least in the US) and I would agree.
Thats not to say that the members of the Creedmore team couldn't finish well, but I certainly wouldn't bet on any of them to win anytime very soon. (in 300m) It would certainly be interesting to see though.

No disrespect intended, but international shooting has no "grass roots" programs. It has no broad base of volunteers to run local international shooting programs, such as clinics. This is what is needed as a first step in enlarging the base. It seems to me that international shooting is focused on the elite shooters. Until a change in thinking occurs, participation will dwindle. This is not a new idea. In the 50's and 60's the national military teams drew their members from post teams. During those years nearly every unit in the military funded shooting teams. There were matches to keep eliminating the less talented shooters. The national teams, like the Army Marksmanship Unit, recruited the cream of the crop. The result was many international medals and national records and national champions.

No disrespect intended, but international shooting has no "grass roots" programs. It has no broad base of volunteers to run local international shooting programs, such as clinics.

what do you call the 3P Air program if not grass roots?. 6 or 7 years ago , the problem was getting enough shooters on college teams, Often they were recruited from the student body. Now , due to the 3P Air (a USAS and CMP initiative) kids are fighting to get a college rifle spot. Even more impressive when you consider the overall increase in NCAA college rifle teams that are all female due to Title IX.

Clinics? look around, CMP,NRA,USAS, USAMU all sponsor clinics sometimes alone, often jointly at various locations throught the country. Bob Foth also gives clinics as well.

Misny wrote:No disrespect intended, but international shooting has no "grass roots" programs. It has no broad base of volunteers to run local international shooting programs, such as clinics.

Hi

I think I know what you're getting at. When the 3-P teams Pilk mentions get to college, they shoot 3-P which isn't EXACTLY international. They don't necessarily have any desire to shoot international either. But I agree with Pilk in that we do have a larger base of shooters to draw from, just not an international base.

Based on a copy of a post on a highpower sight, no everyone in America cares anything about competing in the Olympics. No I didn't write it, but I do see the boy's point.

To quote:

We've all watched the wrong thing with this stupidity at the Olympics. Bribed judges, revoked medals, cheating, corruption, bitterness, unsportsmanlike behavior. Why would anyone want to compete amongst a bunch of cheating paid off crybabies in a rigged contest?

And we've watched the NFL, MBA, MLB, NHL, NCAA. They make mistakes too. But they try to do the right thing. They try to be sportsmen and have a fair game. Unsportsmanlike behavior and cheating are looked upon with disdain. Shaving points gets you thrown in jail.

End of quote.

To change the above opinion, you've got to change the Olympics too. At least in Shooting sports, bribing the judges isn't much of an option.

Mike

There are some "grass roots" programs...though some you have to look hard for. I started off shooting precision 3p air on a highschool team. Not everyone on my highschool team made it to college however. You have to find within yourself a drive to get to the college level. I decided my Freshman year in highschool that I would go to college on a rifle scholarship then worked my butt of to get there. Now, I am happy to say, Im relaxing after my first NCAA match.

The point is, THE DRIVE to succeed needs to be intalled in the youngsters entering the sport or they wont make it to the olympics. In many of the other top shooting countries, shooting is made a PART of their life....not just a game.

Oh BTW: What is shot in college is basically international... 3p air is not a college event. It changed this year to 3x20 small bore and 60 shots air

Interesting observations Katy. On finding the shooting sports, they are in fact making a comeback, years ago there were many shooting programs in the high schools, even in places such as New York City! Viet Nam and expoding crime rates put shooting in a bad light and many schools became populated with teachers and administrators that were college students during this crazy time in American history. Anti War most often meant anti shooting as well. Ask any about Kent State, and you will hear anti gun stuff. Add to this mix the problems of old outdated indoor shooting ranges for powdered powered guns in the old school buildings and soon there just were not many indoor oportunities left. The relatively high cost of shooting powder powered guns indoors coupled with a whole generation of adminstrators and teachers that were anti gun after Viet Nam put a negative spin on marksmanship and those who actually enjoyed the sport.

Fast forward to today. Air guns both rifle and pistol are relatively inexpensive to shoot indoors. No special air handling equipment is needed, and backstops can be made from something as simple as cardboard boxes and newspaper, though that isn't the best. The facts are out that shooters tend to be good students academically. Much better on average than any other competitive sport. Matt Emmons is a classic example, top of his class at UAF and Gold medalist in the olympics. As a result shooting is getting into many schools that is was barred in, not many years ago. You are part of the very beginnings of the new wave of shooting sports that can happen should we not loose the momentum. Keep up the good work both in the x rings and in your academic studies. You are helping pave the way!

Katy AKA Alaska Kate wrote:There are some "grass roots" programs...though some you have to look hard for. I started off shooting precision 3p air on a highschool team. Not everyone on my highschool team made it to college however. You have to find within yourself a drive to get to the college level. I decided my Freshman year in highschool that I would go to college on a rifle scholarship then worked my butt of to get there. Now, I am happy to say, Im relaxing after my first NCAA match.

The point is, THE DRIVE to succeed needs to be intalled in the youngsters entering the sport or they wont make it to the olympics. In many of the other top shooting countries, shooting is made a PART of their life....not just a game.

Oh BTW: What is shot in college is basically international... 3p air is not a college event. It changed this year to 3x20 small bore and 60 shots air

guest wrote:

Jose Rossy wrote:
How many here would put money on the Creedmoor Sports NRA Highpower team (G. David Tubb, Norm Houle, Ron Zerr, and Mike Belle) to clean house in any 300 Meter World Cup event?

I would.

Does USA Shooting even know who those guys are?

There are no world cup events for 300m.
Should any of those talented Highpower shooters compete at Nationals, they wouldn't medal.
No disrespect intended. The top 300m shooters wouldn't be likely to medal in highpower either. They are different games.
If the best shooters from either group dedicated lots of time and resources toward the other game, eventually some might cross over successfully. It wouldn't be the first year though.

Yes, you are right, there is no 300 M event in the World Cup. Though there should be. Regardless, we have the Nationals and the World Championships.

I don't think I implied that top level NRA HP shooters could come on top the first time out. What I did say is that they represent an outstanding level of talent and achievement, and that they are prime material to succeed in a similar sport.

David Tubb dominated HP and HP Silhouette concurrently for many years, and those sports are quite different from one another. I see no reason he couldn't do so with HP and 300M.

The questions are, is he interested, and is USAS interested in drawing him into 300M?

mikeshroeder: You got what I was talking about, no international grassroots programs. Also, pilkguns, where are the grassroots international pistol programs? The CMP and other clinics are focused on conventional and are primarily directed at folks already engaged in the shooting sports at some level. The clinics need to be directed to increasing the base with new shooters. Where are the U.S. Shooting clinics, especially in pistol, to introduce folks to the sport? Our rifle program is much stronger than pistol as evidenced by their successes at the Olympics.

ummmmm

doesn't "grass roots" mean WE have to do it?

starting this fall and in 2005, I plan to double the number of 10m pistol matches in Phoenix and start 10m & 50m rifle events that we didn't even have before.

I guess I need to see if we can cause a new-shooter's clinic to appear too.... let me work on that....

Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/