TargetTalk

brent375hh wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:03 pm . . . maybe try some 10 grain pellets . . .

Awesome! Let's try the 10-grain Depleted Uranium pellet. Better trajectory and the Pyrophoric Effect has got to help on tie-breakers using the Doppler-system on electronic targets. I can see Mr. Orvin right now, scouring the rule book trying to find the prohibition on the DU-238 10-grainer "Target Buster!"

brent375hh wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 12:03 pm If you are trying to convince yourself that heavier is better . . .

No actually - simply if there would be a change in point-of-impact from 7.0gr to 8.2gr. Would switching necessitate a few clicks on elevation? That's it.
 
On a serious note, the actual pragmatic practical Real-World problem is: Pilkington doesn't carry the 7.0grain. And I know NOT to change anything only days before a match. And I flat-out refuse to order from "blah-blah-blah DOT com." Scott says use the 8.2grain, period. But I'm almost completely out of 7.0grain, and have scrounged my reserve stash of Meisterkuglen, saving my last tin of R-10 Match for this weekend.

That's the Real-World problem to be solved, and I respect the opinions and service from Pilk Guns whole-heartedly.

A wise sage once said: "Only a fool makes the Finals, with only 23 pellets left."

atomicgale wrote: ↑Wed Sep 27, 2023 6:48 pm Scott says use the 8.2grain, period.

I would be curious to read the original discussion of this from Scott. Was it for pistols, rifles, both or unspecified? I believe H&N or RWS used to specify their heavier match pellets for rifles, and the lighter ones for pistols.

I had Don Nygord tell me that pellet weight didn't matter. My own tests tell me the same.

You MIGHT need to change your sights ONE click if you change pellets.
Why you would possibly want to do that during a match, I can't imagine.
BUT, I have done it, shooting pellets that might be lying on the bench or
even picking up a few off the floor. Just doesn't matter.

USA Shooting Newsletter May/June 2008
https://usashooting.org/publications/

(There are more articles like this, in the other issues.)

Feinwerkbau also recommends the 8.2 grain pellets (at ~150 m/s), see attached email reply to a question I asked in July 2022.

Weight related POA/POI shifts might be pistol dependent, and will certainly be speed related. At 10 meters they will likely be small.

I think everyone needs to see for themselves.

m1963 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:42 am USA Shooting Newsletter May/June 2008
https://usashooting.org/publications/

(There are more article like this, in the other issues.)

Thanks, but if you search this article, it doesn't mention pellet weight anywhere. I skimmed it and didn't see anything, so I searched for "weight", "heavy", "light" and "grams", and all searches came up empty.

Gwhite wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 9:48 am
Thanks, but if you search this article, it doesn't mention pellet weight anywhere. I skimmed it and didn't see anything, so I searched for "weight", "heavy", "light" and "grams", and all searches came up empty.

It's been a while since I have read all of those articles. Also, I believe USA Shooting may have archived some older resources off the website a year or so, ago.

mus wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 6:42 am Feinwerkbau also recommends the 8.2 grain pellets (at ~150 m/s) [492 ft/s]

Given:
7.0grain: V = 568 ft/sec (chron'y data)
8.2grain: V = 525 ft/sec (estimate)

Flight time to 10m (32.8086ft):
7.0grain: 0.05776 seconds
8.2grain: 0.06249 (let's assume flight in a vacuum, no deceleration)

Gravity: α = -32.1741 ft/sec^2;
d= 1/2 x α x t^2
7.0grain drops: 0.6440" (16.36mm)
8.2grain drops: 0.6776" (17.21mm)

Difference: 0.85mm (half-a-click on elevation); ignoring the Coriolis-Effect, zero clicks windage

Objective:
1. The heavier pellet simply gets one closer to that stated "optimal" of 490-510 ft/sec
2. Pilk only sells the heavier pellet

Conclusion: Do what Scott tells you to do.

I'm still waiting for a definitive statement from Scott on the subject. We are pistol shooters here, which represents a small portion of the air gun market. I've definitely seen strong recommendations that heavier pellets are good for air rifle, and they are accurate enough that you can tell the difference. Maybe Scott only sells heavy pellets because 90% of his market is for air rifles, and for pistol, nobody can shoot well enough that it matters.

Bench rest accuracy is only part of the puzzle. The reduced barrel time of a light pellet could be argued to be beneficial to an actual wobbly pistol shooter.

I got my pistol shooting what I thought was good 5 shot groups with 7.0 R10.
Maybe I can improve with heavy version?

brent375hh wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:16 pm Maybe I can improve with heavy version?

Here's my 5-round pistol pseudo-group with RWS R-10 7.0
Maybe the heavy version will keep me from sending every fifth pellet to the 7-ring aka "low earth orbit."
Hypothesis: Human bio-mechanical variance will produce 100x-plus the "landing zone area" for your pellet vs. pure mechanical variance of ANY pellet: 7.0 vs 8.2gr, same Lot vs random tins, RWS vs H&N, et cetera . . . .



Let's introduce: Economic-feasibility into our study.
Tin of RWS R-10 7.0gr at "blah-blah-blah DOT com #1": $18.99
Tin from Amazon: They'll send you these crushed tins that those monkeys from the old Samsonite luggage commercials tossed around (mistake!)
Tin of RWS R-10 7.0gr at "blah-blah-blah DOT com #3": $19.59
Tin of RWS R-10 8.2gr at Pilk Guns: $13.50

Hence, for $200 you can't afford one sleeve of pellets at the "Big Box" places after sales tax & shipping.
At PILK, $200 gets a full SLEEVE PLUS another 3 full TINS, all from the same LOT.
LINK: http://www.pilkguns.com/store/Pellets-c23532027

CONCLUSION: Pellets don't make a lick of difference. Buy from Pilk or Neal Stepp in Ft. Worth and support those vendors who support us shooters.

International Shooters Service
LINK: http://www.iss-internationalshootersservice.com/

If you jerk a 7, then the pellet that left the barrel sooner will be closer to center.

I buy either R10 or Meisterkugeln 7.0. by the case. Yes, they All the same lot.
And No, they are Not more expensive in the lighter version.
Meisterkugeln is $9.74 per tin of 500 Delivered.

With the new electronic targets at CMP- Anniston: The system now measures and reports pellet velocity at target. (Don't know if it will calculate average velocity for 60 shots - I didn't fiddle with it enough today.)

RESULTS with 8.2 grain R-10 RWS "Rifle" pellets: Range of velocity from: 148.6 meters/sec to high just over 150.x m/sec. Consistently in the low 149.x meter/sec (from Steyr EVO10 regular barrel length). Translated for you Red Coat English types: average 489 feet per second at 10m target.

Compare with original data from this thread: Same pistol, with RWS 7.0 grain measured 568 feet/sec at the muzzle.

Hence, which is best? 7.0grain "pistol" pellets; or Scott's recommendation of the 8.2-grain?

After careful consideration of the above information, I have come to the conclusion that the .177 pellets are most likely to perform well.

atomicgale wrote: ↑Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:39 pm Hence, which is best? 7.0grain "pistol" pellets; or Scott's recommendation of the 8.2-grain?

The one that groups smaller in your pistol.

The only terminal ballistic that a pellet has to do is to punch a hole in the paper target or interrupt a beam of light.
Velocity doesn't matter, as long as it groups well.

Don't forget that the velocity screw isn't welded in place at the factory.
You can clamp your pistol and adjust velocity for best group size, just like trying different amounts of powder in your firearms until you get an acceptable group.

I don't think more velocity is a bad thing either, as long as you have good groups. If you.are the kind of shooter that tends to lean on the trigger a little bit more when the sights are closer to center, then the faster the better. More spring tension on the striker also shortens the lock time. Taken to the extreme, 100fps and flint lock timing, even if grouped like a laser, would not probably produce better results for most people.

Here's some raw data from CMP this morning. (Steyr EVO10): Terminal velocity at target from the new machines indicating 489ft/sec. We then chrony'd same pistol, same pellets at the muzzle - consistently 531 ft/sec. ; with the 8.2 grain pellets. Interesting, didn't think there'd be a 40fps decline from muzzle to target.

Remember: The thesis-topic on this post: How does trajectory differ from 7.0gr to 8.2gr.? (Not which pellet is best - I agree with Rover, "best pellet" is pointless - basic human deviation, aka the "I totally suck factor" vastly overwhelms any difference in "best pellet.") This is a post on basic pellet ballistics.

For the record, I'm going forward with the 8.2gr - One, the observed data brackets 500 ft/sec; but more important: Simply because the 8.2gr is what Scott has for sale.

Why does it seem that nobody considers the possibility that a pellet that is half a millimeter less precise than pellet X, is just as likely to put that .5mm deviation L, R, H, or L into a higher ring?

It is not quite "just as likely." Because the lower scoring rings are bigger, if the shots were random, you wouldn't get as many 10's as you would get 9's. The area of the ten ring is about one fifth that of the 9 ring. If the 10 and 9 regions were separated by a straight line, and your shots were centered on the "9" side so that they just touch the line, statistically, you would get as many 10's as 9's. Because they are separated by an arc, the shots would favor 9's more than 10's.

As a practical matter, the error of any decent pistol with any decent pellet is small enough that you will never see the difference.

atomicgale sez:

" Simply because the 8.2gr is what Scott has for sale."

Makes as much sense as these two pages.