TargetTalk

Hi Lothar,
I've had quite a few quality air pistols. FWB, Walther, they are ALL good guns. They will All show a one hole test target. So don't have any doubt about their quality or precision. Choose the one that pleases you, that feels the best. Shooting '10' will be all up to you! ;-)

It seems the AP20 is a good choice for our son and daughter. Once a buyer reaches the cost of the AP20Pro, it seems an Lp500 would be a better choice.

If you're concerned about cost, why not buy a used single stroke pneumatic? You would save the cost of tank, fittings, and gauges, plus ongoing testing and fills. You would give up nothing in terms of accuracy, trigger, or fit, plus the kids would get a little strengthening exercise.

If the above does not appeal, you could find a CO2 gun with lower costs all around. Still no downside.

Rover wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:56 pm If you're concerned about cost, why not buy a used single stroke pneumatic? You would save the cost of tank, fittings, and gauges, plus ongoing testing and fills. You would give up nothing in terms of accuracy, trigger, or fit, plus the kids would get a little strengthening exercise.

If the above does not appeal, you could find a CO2 gun with lower costs all around. Still no downside.

Yeah, Rog, but what about the farkles? Can you have quantum mechanical sliding weights on a PCP? And what about the scrubber needed to purge excessive release of CO2? In the final analysis, neither a PCP nor a CO2 pistol will sufficiently deplete finances, leaving the purchaser guilt-ridden and having to live with the impression that in the end coaching and training might carry the day.

My God, William, you got it in one. Your perspicacity never fails to amaze.

Someone mentioned "upgrade in performance". What exactly do you mean? What "performance" function does an AP possess when you are set to fire? If you're talking "features" that's a matter of preference.

Separately, do potential buyers ask themselves if they plan to use/own their new AP for more than ten years?
What is your plan when the cylinders "expire"? If you buy a Walther, you can bet they'll have moved on to an LP600 or LP700, AND you can bet money on it that they will:
1) change the threads on the cylinders so the new ones are not backwards compatible. And,....
2) they will not have sufficient spares in inventory to support your "obsolete" model.
Not sure if the Hämmerli will be any better off, being they're also owned by Umarex.

Somewhere in the archives here, there is a posting by a guy with Walther who explains their rationale for not supporting older products. Caveat Emptor!

6string wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:43 pm Someone mentioned "upgrade in performance". What exactly do you mean? What "performance" function does an AP possess when you are set to fire? If you're talking "features" that's a matter of preference.

Separately, do potential buyers ask themselves if they plan to use/own their new AP for more than ten years?
What is your plan when the cylinders "expire"? If you buy a Walther, you can bet they'll have moved on to an LP600 or LP700, AND you can bet money on it that they will:
1) change the threads on the cylinders so the new ones are not backwards compatible. And,....
2) they will not have sufficient spares in inventory to support your "obsolete" model.
Not sure if the Hämmerli will be any better off, being they're also owned by Umarex.

Somewhere in the archives here, there is a posting by a guy with Walther who explains their rationale for not supporting older products. Caveat Emptor!

I mentioned both of those things features and performance. Unfortunately there’s not a ton of information about AP that is extremely accessible. This forum has been the most help I’ve been able to find. In my very limited experience I can feel a big difference in the trigger between my sons AP20 and the Morini 162mi we’re getting him. I would call that a difference in performance because they’re both mechanical triggers. In features things like the added shape in the grip, a better muzzle compensator, included weights etc are nice additions.

Now I fully understand that you can be a great shooter with either platform, and I’m not expecting the gun to be the end all, but if it truly didn’t matter wouldn’t everyone just be shooting a crosman?

In regard to what you said about backward compatibility and the future issues if holding onto something for 10 years (which I plan on) is there a company out there that does not do this? Is this just something that Walther is known for doing?

Steyr has been exceptionally consistent in their designs, especially as far as cylinders go. They haven't changed the cylinder design & interface in over 20 years. Same goes for Morini. The advantage of the Steyr design is that the seal is on the pistol, and is easy to replace.

6string wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:43 pm What is your plan when the cylinders "expire"? If you buy a Walther, you can bet they'll have moved on to an LP600 or LP700, AND you can bet money on it that they will:
1) change the threads on the cylinders so the new ones are not backwards compatible. And,....
2) they will not have sufficient spares in inventory to support your "obsolete" model.
Not sure if the Hämmerli will be any better off, being they're also owned by Umarex.

Well, the AP20 family, the LP400, and the LP500 all use the same adaptors... not sure why you'd think they'd change on a hypothetical 600...

Even if they don't change the design, they should. Having the seal that is most exposed to dirt & wear buried down inside a small hole where you can't either examine, clean or easily replace it is not a great design. Unless your goal is to sell expensive cylinders when a 50 cent O-ring goes bad.

The team I help coach has over thirty AP20 cylinders. We had two where the seals died quickly, so they were replaced under warranty. They didn't even ask for them back. I'm not sure about Walther's current policy, but I don't think they will repair cylinders once the initial warranty expires. Our AP20 cylinders are about 4 years old now. They seem to be holding up OK, but they didn't get much use for about 2 years during the pandemic. I will be VERY surprised if they are all operational by the time their 10 year life is over.

You can still get Hammerli AP40 cylinders (at considerable expense). The ones we've bought recently are very unreliable (the gauges tend to leak after a few years), and as far as I know, they won't repair them. I wouldn't be surprised if they use the same gauge design in their newer cylinders, in which case they may well have the same problem.

The AP20 is fantastic as an entry level pistol for a team with a lot of turn-over because of the highly adjustable grip design. I would never buy a Walther air pistol for my own use.

I have an older Walther CP2 CO2 pistol as well as an LP400, because I want them and I can put up with quirky Walther product support. I have a lot of respect for my learned friend playing armorer for a college program. With that said, a new walther with newish cylinders will get you at least 9 years of usage before the cylinders time out. BOTH guns suffer that, so you have to look at the history of their products. Both come from solid builders and I haven't had a bad experience with either of them. My vintage gun is a different story. Hamerli supports its products far longer than makes economic sense and Walther surpluses its parts after a time and leaves you to the graces of the obsolete parts houses. Understanding that, As a retired guy with a wifely restricted gun budget. SPEND THE MONEY. The LP500 is ALWAYS an upgrade from an AP20Pro IN YOUR MIND. It will get into your head and ruin the fun if you think you were cheaping out. I have a very good shooting High Standard Supermatic I use for Intl pistol, and I wonder every time I shoot it why it is in my hand instead of a Pardini. Even if the guns shoot exactly the same, and I'm not sure you can shoot the difference, you already have it in your mind the LP500 is better and are looking for an excuse to spend the extra money. Just buy the damn thing and enjoy life

Short answer imo is “ yes “.