TargetTalk

40xguy wrote: ↑Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:07 am lots of thoughts here about what YOU can do for him. I'm wondering what HIS thoughts are. ie, how does HE feel about all this? what are HIS long term goals? does HE see shooting as fun and is HE enthusiastic about this? look at things from HIS point of view !!

Absolutely true ... especially when they reach the HS level.

Sometimes at the early age you just need to take them along with you.
When my youngest daughter was 8-11, I drug her along because I had made a commitment to our 4-H program in the county, and for a while it was only my kids showing up regularly to practice.
My oldest shot thru HS, was recruited by several schools and decided not to shoot in college (Married her HS boyfriend --- who just received his doctorate LPN)<<and just last night had my first grandbaby!!>>
My middle quit shooting competitively in her JR year of HS to pursue her art career
My youngest, shot NCAAs, traveled the world, still competes and is a collegiate coach in her own right now.
She continued to shoot in HS as that was a time when we could do a bunch of things together.

Whatever you do, don't let them fall off into the video game hole.

Heh-heh, thanks for the continued help.

Responding to a few different comments:
To 40xguy: this is exactly one of my concerns; he has been enthusiastic about shooting, but because it suddenly "became hard" and he "got worse" when he went to unsupported, that enthusiasm diminished. That's why I was looking for input on how to keep him interested and having fun.

To Soupy44: this is the direction I am working toward now, based on feedback here (and I just finished reading 'The New Position Rifle Shooting'). We were at the range yesterday, and most of the time we still spent on sitting with back support (based on his preference to keep at that), but I also had him try offhand. Unfortunately he was only able to shoot one round before he said it was too much -- he says the rifle is still too heavy, and he was already tired from shooting seated.

However, I purchased a Daisy 853 with the hopes of starting practicing regularly with that offhand. I don't think the weight is THAT much less than his CM-2, but getting more practice time should help his endurance. We will also be visiting a local air rifle range this afternoon, so that may open up more opportunity.

I will note two observations from our range time yesterday:
1. I went through ALL his targets from the last 14 months and entered his scores in Excel to plot them. I showed him how his scores improved over time and became more consistent. I'm not sure if this helped or not, but my son tends toward the analytical side, so my hope is that this will help him see improvement and strive to beat his previous scores.
2. At the range, a more experienced shooter was there this week, which is unusual. Typically kids just show up for a few weeks, then disappear, never progressing past supported prone. I think having a more advanced shooter there gave my son something to compare himself to, and may have sparked a little competitiveness in him (even though the other shooter is 6-7yrs older!). This may turn out to be a considerable 'AHA!' moment for figuring out how to keep him motivated.

One thing that has become very clear from the feedback I have received, and from reading 'The New Position Rifle Shooting' is that although we are 'participating' in this sport of precision rifle shooting, I think we are in a whole different league than most of you. We may as well be recreational shooters plinking cans in comparison. There is no way I would be able to justify spending $1000 on an air rifle, or $1600 on a SCATT, or even $600 on TRACE (or whatever those systems are going for right now). And there is no way my 10yr old son (or even I) can spend 12-15 hours per week to train (as recommended by 'The New Position Rifle Shooter').

I hope that doesn't come off the wrong way -- I'm not trying to say I don't value and appreciate EVERYONE'S feedback; it is just a little humbling to put our situation and performance in perspective with athletes that dedicate so much time and money to being the best!

That being said, I am committed to trying to supply my son with the best equipment, time, and opportunities I can afford, knowing it might take him a little longer to progress and that he may never perform (or even compete) at the level of any of you. That's why my biggest concern is keeping him interested/excited and "seeing what develops", rather than trying to push him too hard to "achieve".

Along those lines, has anyone tried the MantisX training system (there are a couple forum threads elsewhere about it)? I'm sure it's no substitute for SCATT or even TRACE, but it's also only $150. Basically it's an accelerometer that mounts to the barrel and reports gun movement before, during, and after trigger pull. There is no calibration to a target, so it won't tell you if you shoot a 7 or a 10, but it's supposed to help you improve the steadiness of your hold and release. It was originally developed for pistols, but supposedly it can be used on rifles as well. My thought was that it might appeal to a kid's video game disposition -- your results are plotted on a phone/iPad and you can try to beat your previous high score. Any opinions?

Thanks again, everyone! This forum is truly a unique and great resource.

marky-d

Going back to your first post I wonder if 3p was his idea or yours. Not being critical but having coached a lot of youth I find that the parents are more ambitious about positions than the shooters. 10 is young and he has a lot of time to become a 3p shooter. I'd say let him continue to perfect the skill of prone and enjoy it not until he's exhausted his achievement levels but until he is motivated to take on a new challenge. His body and mind will support 3p a lot better at age 11 or 12. I see kids maturity go up dramatically at this time. Look for some prone only matches for him to enjoy the skills he currently has worked hard for. Good luck to him, hope he sticks with it at his own pace.

The 3P is definitely his decision! Not that he directly wants to learn the different shooting positions, but that he wants to earn the NRA shooting levels. It just so happened that the youth shooting program that is available does the 4P program, so he wants to earn all the ranks.

On a related note, we visited a 10m air rifle range last weekend and that got my son really excited again. They shoot standing position exclusively (as you would expect, I guess), but they're able to shoot with the rifle on a rest, with just an elbow on a counter, OR completely offhand. He had a good time, did well, and is really excited to compete against other kids.

I know no one here knows my son, but he is the type of kid that hates team sports because they always get too competitive, so it is really interesting and surprising to see him so anxious to COMPETE! Of course, he expects to win right out of the gate, which is a good attitude, but hopefully he won't get too discouraged if he doesn't beat all the other kids that have been doing this for years... :)

marky-d

re your post of Nov 13th: you say that it's good that your son has the attitude that "he expects to win right out of the gate." sorry, but I totally disagree. re the kids in today's educational system: so many are taught that all they have to do to be a winner is show up and put forth a modicum of effort. this is not true and it sets kids up for failure in later life (in my opinion). having said all this, you now have a good opportunity to show him that it takes hard work, dedication, practice, knowledge, passion, and that extra something down deep inside of you, to be a winner. showing up and pulling the trigger will not produce a winner. you said earlier that when it became hard, his enthusiasm diminished. so, again, this is a chance to explain the real world to him. my thought would be to let him choose which position he wants to shoot, let him make his choice for himself, praise him when he does well, comfort him when he does not do well, and explain that we cannot always be winners and perfect when we want to be. if he continues to shoot well in his choice of positions, he'll gain confidence, strength, and understanding and then you might ask if he'd like to move on to another position in 3P. hope this helps. ps: a father-son relationship is a prized thing in today's world... you sound like you have one in the making. best wishes for all the best.

What attitude would you prefer a competitor to have? I fail to see how forcing a 10yr old to do something they don't enjoy, and fostering an attitude that they may never be as good as they want to be, no matter how badly they want it, helps develop young athletes of any type.

I think you misunderstood my statement. My son does not "expect to win right out of the gate" because he was raised in an environment of 'participation trophies' -- far from it. He thinks he can win because he has confidence in his shooting ability (I don't see anything wrong with that) and he's 10. When I explained to him that the other kids in the program are several years older and have been practicing for as long, or longer, than he has, he really took it to heart: he decided he might only be able to get second place.

:)

I see that attitude of wanting to win, and believing he CAN win, as a very big positive. It is much better than an attitude of believing that he can never be as good as anyone else and shouldn't bother trying. But both attitudes are fairly independent of the knowledge that being the best requires patience, practice, and determination. Frankly, one might argue that knowing you can win is a big part of the "extra something down deep inside of you" that winners possess.

My realization at the range was that it is exactly that comparison to others, and having a metric to judge himself against, is what has been missing, and that surprised me. When he shoots alone, all he has is himself to compare to, with no perspective on whether it is good or bad. So when moving to an unsupported position (any he attempted) from supported prone, all he saw was shots going consistently from 8-10s to having difficulty staying in the black. He doesn't understand that others have the same problems.

So if he starts competing in air rifle, will he win the first match? No way. Will he come in last? I hope not, but maybe. But he will get to see other kids performing well and he'll understand that if he keeps it up then there is no reason he won't catch up and surpass them. And I think he'll have fun doing it. Does that fall into "showing up and pulling the trigger"?

marky-d

I suggest that you do a few things with the 853
#1 - If the trigger mod has not been done to it, do it! The stock 853 trigger is BAD. The #1 mod is to smothen the trigger pull, so that it is not rough and gritty.
#2 - Dry fire. The 853 can be dry fired simply by pulling the bolt back to cock the hammer. This develops trigger control. Put a black dot on a piece of paper for a target, and you are off.
#3 - Live fire in your garage or where you can find even 5 meters of space. You will have to scale down the target for the shorter range, but that give him live trigger time putting pellets on a target.
Scoring on reduced range targets is tricky; the target gets smaller, but the pellet remains the same size. So I recommend just shooting at a black circle the size of the reduced size bull. The goal is to keep ALL the shots inside the black. Then as he gets better, to have them group closer and closer to the center. At a certain point, he has to shoot less shots at a bull, to be able to identify EVERY shot.

gud luk

Thanks Gary!

Funny you should mention these things...
#1: That's the first thing I did. The trigger is now much improved. I bought two of the 853s, and I was tempted to leave one un-modified to try to improve trigger control, but I couldn't bear to leave it so bad!
#2: Haven't started this yet, but it's in the plan.
#3: This is in process. I've built a pellet trap and now I'm clearing as long a run as I can in the garage.

In January, my son will be starting the air rifle program at the local club I found. They have Daisy 887s for him to use, so the next problem is probably going to convincing him to "downgrade" to the 853 at home.... :)

marky-d

marky-d wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:47 pm In January, my son will be starting the air rifle program at the local club I found. They have Daisy 887s for him to use, so the next problem is probably going to convincing him to "downgrade" to the 853 at home.... :)
marky-d

If he is going to do 3-P Air ... it is more difficult with the 853. the 888/887s are CO2 which removes the very hard step of cocking in the prone position.
If he shows interest, it might be good to think of upgrading ... but depending on how many times a week they have training sessions, the need for a home range will diminish.

For now the air rifle is standing only, not 3P, so it's a not really an issue, other than he finds pumping it fairly difficult. He still has his smallbore to practice the other positions though.

We'll see where things go...

It seems like it's been forever since I first started this thread, but I thought I'd give a little update, if anyone is interested, or might be facing a similar challenge with their kid or youth program.

My son had his first session in a new air rifle program yesterday. He loved it. He is currently shooting from a rest, and scoring ~35/50 or better. But I think there are three things that really have him motivated:
1. He was shooting with three older, skilled kids (he's 10, they ranged 13-18 and have been shooting 3+ years). Seeing their ability gives him a goal to shoot for, and he knows it is attainable.
2. In this program, there are two running competitions among the members. First, every month the members shoot a target for score, and at the end of the season the top four monthly scores are averaged to select the year's Champion Shooter. Second, at each PRACTICE, additional targets are shot for score and TOTALLED at the end of the season, to award a second winner -- this provides an opportunity for the kids that may not be the best shooters, but show up consistently to practice, to compete for something. My son knows he's not going to be Champion Shooter this year, but he wants to win the 'participation award'!
3. The club has an assortment of club rifles available, but the 'nice' ones are reserved for the more skilled shooters. My son REALLY wants to shoot the nice rifles, so he is going to work hard to get to that level. The interesting consequence of this is that I think I'll restrain myself from buying him a nicer rifle of his own -- I don't want to eliminate this great source of motiviation.

A fourth item that doesn't have as much impact now as it will in a few years, is that the older kids are cute girls.... :)

The biggest benefit of the program is that he now has MUCH more practice time every month. We never seem to be able to make time at home, but he is still doing his 3P smallbore as well, which all together gives him about 4hr of practice every two weeks. I realize this is still inadequate for a SERIOUS shooter, but it's four times what he had before, so I'll call that a big step!

As for the smallbore, he has been continuing to shoot in the seated position, but with his back supported against the wall. His scores are improving slowly, but I'm trying to concentrate more on consistency from bull to bull.

On Saturday, my son had a really important realization while shooting smallbore. On one of his bulls, he shot a beautiful set of five shots, with four touching. Afterward, he noted that the rifle "just automatically wanted to point in the right place" so he didn't have to "aim". I had previously explained to him on many occasions about the importance of body position, and repositioning his whole body instead of pushing the rifle around with his arm or leg muscles, but seeing it come together finally showed him how important it really is.

marky-d