TargetTalk

"To me Canada, and perhaps the USA, would benefit from a Krale like big importer distributor coming in and either using the good locals that exist or creating new local representation to support a larger central inventory."

A quick scan of Krale's website makes it pretty clear that they are not importers. Looking at guns (powder and 10-meter air) reveals that just about every factory-new gun they sell is made in the EU. If there were such an importer as you dream, and dream it is, who would pay the local representatives? Would their commission be built into the item price, or would they rely on the generosity of buyers to provide tips? Who will stock replacement parts, and who will keep qualified (factory trained) technicians on payroll?

In the real world, there is no way a servicing US importer-dealer could afford to stay in business whilst competing with an overseas seller like Krale. If you do buy from them, I hope everything works just right because any US / Canada dealer you approach for warranty service will be perfectly justified in:
1. charging you the earth, moon and stars for the parts & labor, or
2. telling you to piss off and fix it yourself.

Just me, but I think peace of mind is worth paying for.

william wrote:In the real world, there is no way a servicing US importer-dealer could afford to stay in business whilst competing with an overseas seller like Krale. If you do buy from them, I hope everything works just right because any US / Canada dealer you approach for warranty service will be perfectly justified in:
1. charging you the earth, moon and stars for the parts & labor, or
2. telling you to piss off and fix it yourself.

Just me, but I think peace of mind is worth paying for.

All right. Throughout this conversation it's become pretty clear that you are in some way involved in this business directly. No one else would have the knowledge you have. I'm not accusing you of bias, but I'll flat-out tell you what I, as a customer, would think of a repairman who said that to me and treated me accordingly.

I will never voluntarily go to a serviceman who believes in what you just stated. That's not repair, that's extortion. I don't care how skilled they are (they could be Morini himself and I still refuse with that attitude). I wouldn't trust that repairman to repair my gun. Why? Because they clearly don't give a shit about me. Why should I trust their expertise when they could so easily (and would want to) take advantage of me? They not only don't have my interest in mind, they have no interest in repairing my gun, and hold me in contempt.

I have seen this attitude at other law firms, and it's a huge cause of both malpractice and angry clients. Contempt for the client is incredibly dumb, and something that both myself and my law partner agree is something we will not do, no matter the source or provocation. And believe me when I say that my client provocations are considerably nastier than those in a sports gun repair industry are.

I would never recommend that repairman to anyone, and I would simply find someone else who actually wanted my money. If there is no one else, well, then I'll sell the pistol on the site at a discount and walk away. And that repair person will have one less potential customer. And the sport will grow smaller every time that happens.

I think I've said enough on this topic. If you have a response, fine, but I will not respond further. I am not interested in having my gun repaired by someone who thinks that way, U.S. or not, and I don't think we will ever see eye to eye on that.

Chia wrote:

william wrote:In the real world, there is no way a servicing US importer-dealer could afford to stay in business whilst competing with an overseas seller like Krale. If you do buy from them, I hope everything works just right because any US / Canada dealer you approach for warranty service will be perfectly justified in:
1. charging you the earth, moon and stars for the parts & labor, or
2. telling you to piss off and fix it yourself.

Just me, but I think peace of mind is worth paying for.

I will never voluntarily go to a serviceman who believes in what you just stated. That's not repair, that's extortion.

I agree with Chia. In the new market reality, where buying directly from Europe is now 25% cheaper than doing the same from a domestic importer, such an attitude would hardly be a sound business plan.

Chia wrote:I wouldn't trust that repairman to repair my gun. Why? Because they clearly don't give a shit about me. Why should I trust their expertise when they could so easily (and would want to) take advantage of me? They not only don't have my interest in mind, they have no interest in repairing my gun, and hold me in contempt.

Don't you think that works both ways.

In bypassing an official importer but then going to him for warranty repairs you obviously wouldn't be demonstrating much care for him either.

From a sign displayed in a local gun shop here in Australia.

*****
Support your local gun shop.
Supporting the local dealer supply chain is essential to keep the shooting sports alive in Australia. Direct to the public sellers, operating from a single premises do not contribute to the support network that is required to service the shooting community.

Take a product like unprimed brass for example. It's a product that is easily purchased by mail order and shipped around the country with no freight restrictions, licensing, or the need to touch and feel before you buy, simply order and it arrives in the mail. Using that example it might appear gunshops are perhaps obsolete and not all that important to shooters.

But consider the next time you want to buy a firearm, some ammo, or powder. Those items cannot be shipped direct to your mailbox because they are a restricted/licensed item. Someone has to process the PTA and/or check your licence in person before that transaction can take place. Some might believe it could all be legally sent to the local police station and collected there. Consider the volume of goods police stations would be handling if this was the case, and the subsequent strain on police resources. And while you're there try asking your local Policeman if he could fit your scope for you or for some helpful reloading advice, just a few of the additional services that your local gunshop provides.

The simple fact is, that as Australian shooters, we all need local gun shops. In this climate of heavy regulation and licensing, they are fundamental in being able to distribute firearms (or any licensed shooting products) at a local level.

How do they stay in business? They must make a profit on the goods they sell. Would you begrudge them making a profit? Remember we need them to be there; how else can we easily walk in and grab a few packets of ammo, check out that next gun purchase, or pick up some powder for our favourite reload.

The direct sell model is very attractive in the short term and may save a few dollars, but it doesn't support shooting in the long run. Shooter's will always need bricks and mortar gun shops that provide a legal, local and convenient place to buy firearm related products, without them shooting sports in Australia would be practically impossible.

So the moral of the story; support your local gun shop, don't begrudge him a little profit to make a living and you will be supporting shooting throughout Australia into the future.
******

Yes, different people are subject to different laws about buying firearms from overseas thru the mail, but it is the underlying message that is important.
Thanks

David Levene wrote:

Chia wrote:I wouldn't trust that repairman to repair my gun. Why? Because they clearly don't give a shit about me. Why should I trust their expertise when they could so easily (and would want to) take advantage of me? They not only don't have my interest in mind, they have no interest in repairing my gun, and hold me in contempt.

Don't you think that works both ways.

In bypassing an official importer but then going to him for warranty repairs you obviously wouldn't be demonstrating much care for him either.

Why so? Does not an official importer charge the manufacturer for the warranty repairs he performs?
I once bought a car on the East Coast from a dealer but had to go to another one for warranty repairs a month later on the West Coast. They were more than happy to service my car for the aforementioned reason and nobody thought that my request was in any way inappropriate.

shaky hands wrote:

David Levene wrote:

Chia wrote:I wouldn't trust that repairman to repair my gun. Why? Because they clearly don't give a shit about me. Why should I trust their expertise when they could so easily (and would want to) take advantage of me? They not only don't have my interest in mind, they have no interest in repairing my gun, and hold me in contempt.

Don't you think that works both ways.

In bypassing an official importer but then going to him for warranty repairs you obviously wouldn't be demonstrating much care for him either.

Why so? Does not an official importer charge the manufacturer for the warranty repairs he performs?
I once bought a car on the East Coast from a dealer but had to go to another one for warranty repairs a month later on the West Coast. They were more than happy to service my car for the aforementioned reason and nobody thought that my request was in any way inappropriate.

It depends on the industry. We import machines into the UK and as part of the deal we are expected to pick up reasonable warranty labour costs (thankfully few).

David Levene wrote: It depends on the industry. We import machines into the UK and as part of the deal we are expected to pick up reasonable warranty labour costs (thankfully few).

If that is the case here, it would be reasonable for an official importer to charge fair price for the labor and parts. It would not be reasonable to "teach" a customer not to buy from others by charging him "the earth, moon and stars," as suggested.

Chia, you say: " Throughout this conversation it's become pretty clear that you are in some way involved in this business directly."

Not true. I'm just a guy in his 8th decade who has seen too many service-oriented businesses fail thanks to the oh-so-clever buyers who can't see (or don't care about) the larger consequences of their individual acts of selfishness.

"Individual acts of selfishness," unfortunately, are at the core of the capitalist system. A business that expects customers to act against their self-interest is only partially business and partially a donation-seeking enterprise. There is nothing wrong about it, of course, as many entities are completely operating on donations. However, appeal by a business to higher motives (buy local, support "mom and pop") might extend the life of an economically unsustainable operation but it usually fails as donating "parishioners" move on or out, die, etc.

What I often find offensive about the "Buy Local" demands is that it seems to translate into: Get screwed now or we'll screw you in the end.

To get local support, local stores need to support the local market. And we're not talking local gunshops here in this thread. We're talking national importers/retailers or at best regional dealers who are far removed from "local".

Good customer friendly business plans GIVE the customer stuff to attract them back for other purchases or service that's more profitable. Good business diversifies the offer of profitable services to support the overall business. A bad business plan keeps squeezing the customer and tells them to suck it up or else and runs an overpriced limited array of services depending on being the only game in town.

Again, I think the biggest problem is one of organisation and cooperation.

If, as a customer, I'm going to buy a 2000$ pistol or rifle sight unseen what difference does it make to me whether the vendor is 1500 km away on the east coast or 3692 km away on the west coast compared to 5559 km away in the Netherlands or 6251 km away in Italy?

Then if repairs are required, what does it matter to me, when I've never dealt with any of them before, where or how far I have to send the equipment for repair?

Know who should be supporting local retailers? Manufacturers, importers and distributors. Everyone take a share of the markup, grow the sport. Importer and manufacturer win with increased visibility, a growing sport, and increasing sales. Retailer wins by getting feet in the door to see and experience services and supplies.

Think brick-and-mortar affiliate links.

I've worked retail, and IMO one of my biggest strengths as an employee was knowing the distributor catalogues and special order resources available. Made less money for my boss per sale $ than selling in-stock stuff. But if what the customer wanted or needed wasn't in stock doing the paperwork and making the order earned money and won over a customer that would both otherwise have been lost.

One company I worked for had regional warehouses. These were separate business/franchises than the retail stores. But when a retail store didn't carry something from the store catalogue, something less in demand and/or big ticket item, they could have it within the day from the regional warehouse. Occasionally when the regional warehouse didn't have it, their delivery service could get it from one retail location to another.

That level of cooperation and sharing of risk, inventory, and resources is what is needed to support real local businesses.

Then again, the niche in which to make a profit locally may lie elsewhere than the selling of inventory. Running competitions, processing orders, facilities maintenance, or something else connected.

I said I wouldn't post again, but I owe an apology to William for making the assumption that he was a part of the industry. That's not correct. Also, I know we're in a spirited debate here, but I think there's a lot of commonality between the two sides of this issues:

1. We all agree that repair shops should be able to make a living
2. We all agree that repair shops can and should charge a fair price.

The only issue I had was the nature of the repairman's interest and interaction with the customer. I don't want us to forget that and go off mindlessly into an "us v. them" debate when really we're all in the same boat together: we all like to shoot competitively (or support those who do).

SlartyBartFast wrote:What I often find offensive about the "Buy Local" demands is that it seems to translate into: Get screwed now or we'll screw you in the end.

To get local support, local stores need to support the local market. And we're not talking local gunshops here in this thread. We're talking national importers/retailers or at best regional dealers who are far removed from "local".

Good customer friendly business plans GIVE the customer stuff to attract them back for other purchases or service that's more profitable. Good business diversifies the offer of profitable services to support the overall business. A bad business plan keeps squeezing the customer and tells them to suck it up or else and runs an overpriced limited array of services depending on being the only game in town.

Again, I think the biggest problem is one of organisation and cooperation.

If, as a customer, I'm going to buy a 2000$ pistol or rifle sight unseen what difference does it make to me whether the vendor is 1500 km away on the east coast or 3692 km away on the west coast compared to 5559 km away in the Netherlands or 6251 km away in Italy?

Then if repairs are required, what does it matter to me, when I've never dealt with any of them before, where or how far I have to send the equipment for repair?

Know who should be supporting local retailers? Manufacturers, importers and distributors. Everyone take a share of the markup, grow the sport. Importer and manufacturer win with increased visibility, a growing sport, and increasing sales. Retailer wins by getting feet in the door to see and experience services and supplies.

Think brick-and-mortar affiliate links.

I've worked retail, and IMO one of my biggest strengths as an employee was knowing the distributor catalogues and special order resources available. Made less money for my boss per sale $ than selling in-stock stuff. But if what the customer wanted or needed wasn't in stock doing the paperwork and making the order earned money and won over a customer that would both otherwise have been lost.

One company I worked for had regional warehouses. These were separate business/franchises than the retail stores. But when a retail store didn't carry something from the store catalogue, something less in demand and/or big ticket item, they could have it within the day from the regional warehouse. Occasionally when the regional warehouse didn't have it, their delivery service could get it from one retail location to another.

That level of cooperation and sharing of risk, inventory, and resources is what is needed to support real local businesses.

Then again, the niche in which to make a profit locally may lie elsewhere than the selling of inventory. Running competitions, processing orders, facilities maintenance, or something else connected.

dudes got a point, 4 states over doesn't make it local for me. I will be looking to Pilks for a Morini 162 EI though

William, I've bought a gun from a U.S. importer, but I've also been lucky enough to have lived overseas and have bought stuff there. By your logic, are you saying I should be expected to sell my overseas-purchased guns and buy the same ones from a U.S. importer just to expect any sort of repair service? I find that very unreasonable.

sparky wrote:William, I've bought a gun from a U.S. importer, but I've also been lucky enough to have lived overseas and have bought stuff there. By your logic, are you saying I should be expected to sell my overseas-purchased guns and buy the same ones from a U.S. importer just to expect any sort of repair service? I find that very unreasonable.

No, just expect to pay for it; and don't be shocked if a servicing dealer who was denied a profit on the initial purchase to charge you.

Euro car manufacturers deal with - even encourage - drivers doing just that, including generous reimbursement to dealers who perform warranty repairs. But then, compare the prices and total volume of the auto industry to the airgun trade.

william wrote:No, just expect to pay for it; and don't be shocked if a servicing dealer who was denied a profit on the initial purchase to charge you.

I don't think anyone has said any different. Sure hope the attitude expressed in your post is held in check when serving a customer you don't recognise from equipment sales.

To repeat what Chia said:
1. We all agree that repair shops should be able to make a living
2. We all agree that repair shops can and should charge a fair price.

But I'd ad the comment that repair shops shouldn't be making their money off sales to support repairs. Repair shops should be profitable on providing good repairs paid for by the customer or by the factory for warranty work.

They most certainly aren't justified as was said to:
1. charge you the earth, moon and stars for the parts & labor, or
2. tell you to piss off and fix it yourself.

They can be polite, evaluate the labor and parts required and give a reasonable quote just as they would with any equipment they are qualified to fix regardless of where it was bought or if it was out of warranty.

william wrote:

sparky wrote:William, I've bought a gun from a U.S. importer, but I've also been lucky enough to have lived overseas and have bought stuff there. By your logic, are you saying I should be expected to sell my overseas-purchased guns and buy the same ones from a U.S. importer just to expect any sort of repair service? I find that very unreasonable.

No, just expect to pay for it; and don't be shocked if a servicing dealer who was denied a profit on the initial purchase to charge you.

Euro car manufacturers deal with - even encourage - drivers doing just that, including generous reimbursement to dealers who perform warranty repairs. But then, compare the prices and total volume of the auto industry to the airgun trade.

But I should I expect that "...any US / Canada dealer (I) approach for warranty service will be perfectly justified in:
1. charging (me) the earth, moon and stars for the parts & labor, or
2. telling (me) to piss off and fix it yourself?"

You think that's reasonable?

William when did a gunsmith ever ask you where you bought the item that needed service? I have never had that happen. In addition, how often do you people need to have your guns worked on? I don't ever recall in more than 40 years of smallbore rifle experience needing work done on a rifle other than hanging a new barrel and that is so highly technical there are just a few gunsmiths that can be trusted to do it.

In addition I can't think of a single gun seller with a gunsmith on staff. ISS, Champions Choice, and Champion Shooters don't do service. Pilkington only services air guns. Bruce you said "support your local gun shop" but on my side of the Pacific there are no local gun shops that sell the kind of guns shooters on this site use. If I walk into a gun shop around here and ask for a Glock 17 they can hook me up with about a dozen, but if I ask for an Anschutz 2013, the only answer I would get is a glassy-eyed stare and a "Huh?'.

edit by pilkguns: Champions Choice and Champions Shooters do have gunsmiths on staff. we do converse between ourselves at times as necessary.
Also, we are factory authorizes service centers for Walther, Feinwerkbau, Anschutz, Morini, Steyr and others and do fix all their .22 rifles and pistols.

One quick example. At Perry last year my Pardini acted. Up. Took it to PardiniUSA which was on vendor row. They fixed it overnight. No charge because I had bought it from them.

Chip

ChipEck wrote:One quick example. At Perry last year my Pardini acted. Up. Took it to PardiniUSA which was on vendor row. They fixed it overnight. No charge because I had bought it from them.

Chip

I would hope they would of worked on it even if you got it used, unless they were there only for sales and not to support shooters using their gear.