TargetTalk

Ulrich,

I agree that Martinis are not the solution. However I would not say that the loading lever is difficult to operate; the hand has to release the grip anyway to pick up a new cartridge.

I'm not sure if the fumbling in the videos is evidence of rifles being difficult to operate, it seems more plausible that the shooters are rushing because they are nervous.

I recall a handful of prone shooters in the 1970s shooting Martini based rifles. I was always impressed by how little their hand seemed to move during the cocking and loading process. Everything was very fluid.

I watched the video posted by Ulrich, and indeed at the time indicated is the closeup of the loading of a Bleiker. While their loading port might not be ideal I have to think this particular load was the exception, if it took that much fumbling to load the rifle every time it would not take long before I parked that gun and found something else less fiddly, regardless of how well everything else worked.

Interesting it being mentioned the problems of the general "longness" of the Anschutz system and fitting with the ladies. Just yesterday I was helping a local father/young lady with her 1903. It is safe to say she buys her clothes in the Juniors/Petite section of the store. Almost everything on the 1903 is a struggle for her to reach. Pull too long, trigger too far from grip (even as far back as it can go) , loading port a struggle to reach. The modern systems with short bolts and everything further back are a big plus for the small of stature set.

'Dude

Tim S wrote:Kenny,

thanks for the photo. I think I understand Sam Huish's comment on Stirton about Bleiker chambers. If I'm seeing it right the first few mm of the chamber are formed from the receiver, the barrel does not do back against the bolt face?

That's how I'm seeing it too.
The explanation that I've heard is that the breech face can be made of harder steel than the barrel thus reducing the chance of damage to the breech face from the firing pin or whatever. Maybe it acting as a vibration break is a happy accident.
I'll have to dig out my contact mics again...

K.

Ulrich:

With one exception - and he has a Walther Anatomic - we don't shoot 3P in our club. We mostly just jog along in our local leagues shooting prone at 25 yards with a considerable variety of equipment!

Tim:

You amplify my rather basic point very well.

Bleikers have started to dominate the international field for a variety of reasons which most (if not all) have been touch on.
Bleikers are very accurate. And now that prone is all decimal, being able to outshoot all of the Anschutz's on the line is huge.
The loading port is probably the biggest selling point. In prone it allows the elbow to stay on the mat (depending on the person). In kneeling there is less movement when loading so the position is more consistent. And in standing the ability to load while in position without moving the support arm allows for a more consistent position. All of this also promotes a faster cadence which is very helpful in the wind.
Their stock is also quite comfortable and is designed well. It promotes a very fast change over during three position finals.

Anschutz is going to need to step up their game if they want to get some of the market share back. I am seriously considering switching from Anschutz to Bleiker.
Matt

Not to get too far off topic but here is my BSA MKII International in a Walther GX-1 stock. The action beds off the side of the stock....as per the bolts in the side..and the barrel is completely free-floated. It shoots well.

At least the loading port is by far more elegant than in all other actual rifles...

As a matter of interest, I did see an Anschutz 1813 that had been fitted with a new BSA International Mk3 barrel. It did shoot well but was very heavy. At that time Anschutz were probably producing the best available barrels, so I could not really see the point of the exercise.

Rutty

My wife uses a shorty KK300 with a light barrel built by Sven Martini at Walther, but she drops the butt to load as its still too far to load without the risk of damaging the bullet.
Few of the manufacturers drift far from the "standard" bolt action but of course Ulrich will be aware that Walther in the 80's did produce a very nice martini type action target rifle operated by a side lever, it was in production in parallel with the KK bolt action. I have seen one in the museum at Ulm.
I remember Malcolm Cooper saying that it was a good idea but that they had built the action too far forward so basicaly it negated any advantage, he did ask for a revision but they did not persevere with it and it was dropped. Perhaps it was a bit too ahead of its time?
Good shooting
Robin

I shoot a BSA Mk5 at the moment. The stock is not so great but my body position is low
and when I get my next rifle I will (probably)miss having both elbows planted on the mat while I shoot, spot and load. That tilt action is addictive!

Yes, the side-lever operated Walther UIT-BV (for "Blockverschluss", that's Martini action) was somehow ahead of it's time, sigh.

I purchased a Bleiker Lady Challenger for my daughter that she has now been using a couple of months. So far our experience has been nothing but positive. The rifle, including the stock is very functional and well thought out.

I have not taken it to Eley yet for testing (soon!), but testing from my own vice has produced 10 to 11mm groups. My daughters prone groups have definitely tighten up with this rifle.

As others have pointed out, the position of the loading port is the feature she likes best. She is short and petite, but can easily load in position shooting standing. Prone and kneeling require much less movement than her Anschutz. Being able to maintain position while loading is most likely the reason for her improvements.

By the way, a previous post mentioned the way Emmons loads. I watched him shoot prone with his Anschutz. He would tilt over on his elbow to reach the port. Recently at the World Championship selection match, I watched him shoot his Bleiker. With it he stays in position with just minimal motion of his right hand to load.

KennyB wrote:"If it's broke - it's a Bleiker" is an expression I heard last year and seems to have a degree of truth to it.

More like "If you're broke, it's a Bleiker". :) (Still worth every penny!)

KennyB wrote:Two problems that seem to be quite common are :

The loading platform can stick in the down position in hot conditions.

The locking lugs on the bolt can break.

I think that they are made to quite tight tolerances to achieve the level of accuracy - which in turn requires appropriate maintenance.

In my experience, cleaning and maintenance is much more of a requirement with a Bleiker than it is with an Anschütz/Walther/Feinwerkbau/etc. I suspect the two issues above are exacerbated if not caused by improper cleaning and/or use of the wrong ammo.

If you shoot Lapua/RWS with a bolt set for Eley, you're going to have a bad time. I don't know why anyone would be happy to push the bolt closed with overly-tight headspace (you can tell the difference by feel) for enough rounds to damage the locking lugs, but people are strange. :)

I've been lucky enough to avoid having issues with the feed ramp in hot weather, but I could easily see how it would happen. I can't remember what the temperature was in Granada last year, but it was hot enough!

I've had minor issues when it's cold and wet. The bolt gets a bit sticky. Other than that, I've had ~45,000 rounds through mine with no complaints.

KennyB wrote:Most reports of Bleiker's after sales service that I've heard are positive but I suppose it might depend on who you are or who you go with....

However, I don't own one myself so this is all second hand information.

I've found Bleiker to be very helpful, but I've dealt with them directly. I've no experience of dealing with them through a dealer/distributor.

Overall, I'm very happy with my Bleiker. It's been a joy to shoot from day one. If I was buying another rifle today I'd definitely buy another one.