TargetTalk

william wrote: In case you really need somebody to define "light" and "neutral" for you, there is plenty of information out there about 18% gray cards. They are about the best working definition of those words.

Thank you for the tip, will work on it.

GOVTMODEL wrote: A tournament needs to conform to the rules of the sanctioning body, be it USAS, NRA, or IPSC. Your statement that "The local competition basically does not follow the rules" is misleading.

I apologize if this is misleading. The thread really is a conversation between David and me about ISSF rules.

bummer7 wrote: Vincent,

I read your comments and am puzzled by what you are referring to when you say the local matches aren't "kosher". Can you please elaborate on this topic? As one of several local match directors, I always like to hear from the competitors/shooters their comments, ideas, suggestions, and criticism about our matches and how to improve on them. Please don't be shy about letting me know where we are not following the rules or where you think improvement is needed.

I will be happy to pass along your comments to the other local match directors, volunteeers, and club officers as we are always working to improve the matches.

-Steve

Steve if you read the thread carefully it is about me trying to learn ISSF rules. Our local clubs do not follow ISSF rules, but rather USAS rules, with open events. People here, especially those outside the country, do not understand that. Hence the confusion. It is also partially me not explaining it carefully here, forgetting that we have so many readers here from different countries. Then our OWN people get confused thinking that I was discussing USAS rules.

I would love to have your club host 50M FP without using reduced targets, but obviously it is impossible, so it is not much of a complain, but rather it is a statement of fact that we do not have the resources to do so. Reduction of target is the compromise, and is legal under USAS. I am just glad that we have more than one place that can host a FP event, reduced target or not reduced target.

My club ironically have 50m lanes, but the problem is IIRC only 2 or 3 lanes. I'm not sure if the 3rd lane works. To make more lanes is impossible financially, plus the red tape as you probably know very well about how our range is run. If our range decide to do 50m instead of 50 yards, I think we might have ended up having 7 to 8 relays. That would require at least 2 days.

In fact, even if we follow USAS rules 100%, it will take up so much resources that we will have difficulty holding a lot of matches. Hence the word "Open".

There are several things that I'd like to find out. As time and time again I asked various people if my partner can shoot AP40, requested AP40 instead of AP60, and the answer is always AP60. Since the event is "Open", it is legitimate to have all females to shoot AP60 (I think?). But nobody explains that to me, instead the answers are "I don't know", "it is too complicated", "XX has been shooting AP60 for years, why change?", "XX & YY have been shooting AP60, let's make it easier for everyone", Nothing REALLY wrong with that, but I'd like my partner to be able to shoot AP40. She was meant to use a pneumatic spring, so that extra 20 could be a big difference when it comes to the fatigue factor, which is why I decide to get an LP1. The difference in cost between a Steyr and a pneumatic spring pistol is huge. Anyway, we all know that "XX" kicked all our combined rear ends anyway.

AP should be indoors; but if we abide it strictly, then I think the ONLY place to host it is your club in the Bay Area; or to rent a commercial indoor gun range. The cost will be ridiculous in the latter case. To my knowledge none of the other clubs have the resources to comply with this indoor rule. Not even mine. The amount of work to make my club comply would take a lot of resources, even though we do have the equipment. I cannot possible imagine one person doing all the work, such as wood boarding up the glass case displays on the back wall, set up trolleys, count the targets and organize them, etc etc etc. My organization's home range is "kosher", and I can possibly ask the range manager to allow us to hold an AP event. But as you may know, the LEO has priority of using the indoor range. And the LEO has no time restriction. Anytime an LEO shows up, the entire indoor range has to be shut down, even if the LEO did not "make an appointment" and just show up in random hours. Even if it is just ONE LEO, we have to shut down the indoor range and kick everyone out.

I suggest we all need to be consistent in terms of time management. I am not sure if all the local clubs follow time requirement exactly under USAS rules. For example, there is a difference between ET and regular targets when it comes to time allowed, I was never sure if all the ranges have it strictly enforced.

There are lots of minute stuff we do not do, such as measurement of trigger weight, measurement of speed, testing of ammo/pellets...and I don't mean just one club. I think since we all more or less know each other, and use the same pistol years in and years out, we all assume we will all pass the test. As you personally stated, you will only do measurements for the AP state championship, that means once a year. But if we indeed go ahead and do everything, we do not have the resources. Frequently we only have ONE official dealing with 10-20 competitors; and when the official is competing, there is nobody to take his/her place. If you recall the last tournament our official had an unusually bad day. I wonder how much was it has to do with the fact that he was the only person acting as official, having to deal with everything, stressed, having to shoot at relay 1....all tasks that require more than one person.

IIRC USAS did not address the safety flag issue of pistols like FWB65, and I know at least ONE competitor uses an FWB65. It is a very complicate issue to put the weed wacker through the entire length of the fwb65 from muzzle to breech and then stick out of the receiver; without risking damages. If the competitor decided to leave the firing line temporarily and leave his FWB65 on the bench, then he has to use the safety flag rule, which as some of you may know, is a big problem. Opening up the receiver/chamber on the FWB65 means automatic cocking, and there is no un-cocking mechanism. When he decides to go back on line to fire and take the weed wacker out, then he actually has to fire a pellet right away. There is no dry fire in FWB65, so his shot will count. It is not a malfunction so he cannot ask the official for help.
Finally, any attempt to "dry fire" an FWB65 can potentially be an instant destruction of the pistol. I think this is a USAS rule book thing, there is nothing we can do about it. USAS might assume at this point everyone uses a CO2 or a PCP. I don't know SSP enough to comment, and we have lots of people using the IZH.

There are lots of minute things, that if we want to comply 100%, even in USAS standard, I think it will be very difficult and economically not practical. I don't have the answers, but I am sure you and the elders can figure something out.

This is not a criticism, and certainly not a criticism about you and your club. I was "born" in your club. It is just a matter of cost-effectiveness. We can only improve certain things to make it USAS compilable, but I don't think it is possible to comply everything.

Personally I do not see the non-compliance a big deal, especially under the above circumstances. In fact I was glad because we "tried". It also helps to attract more newcomers or participants if we are not 100% straight collar.

The previous poster stated that I complained afterwards does little more than impugn the integrity of the people running the match and sours the experience for everyone. That is not true, I never did complain to anyone. As for officials, I respect everyone of them. A couple of them became friends with me.

PS. The only true complain I received was that I tend to pull the target from the trolley to examine every shot, and then pull the trolley back to the target plate, as opposed to pull the trolley AFTER all shots on the same target was finished (when we do 2 or 3 shots per target). I did that because at that particular tournament my lane just happened to be the one not having a scope for unknown reasons. I was told that it was distracting for others because of this back and forth trolley pulling. I have since stop doing that. I follow all the rules instructed by the official. Yes, in real life, I keep my mouth shut and open my ears, and open only my mouth if I did not hear clearly and ask for a repeat of what others told me. This is 180' from my internet persona. You have seen me enough in the club room to know that I speak little, and if I do, it is of no consequences. I only talk when an elder talk to me. For example, I would only say "Good morning" to Gi**, an elder as a sign of respect. And when he told us what not to do something, I do not say a single word, and just flatly comply, even though he was not an official of the day. It has nothing to do with his membership of the club, it is merely my act of respecting and learning from elders, IN REAL LIFE.

Fascinating - on a number of levels.

I suppose it might be fascinating... perhaps to a psychology student looking for a research subject. As for the layers, i can smell several of them from here, about 1,000 miles away. Has there ever been so self-absorbed a member of TT prior to this wunderkind? I'm not exactly immune to enjoying the limelight once in a while but this degree of neediness seems a bit much.

conradin wrote:[


Finally, any attempt to "dry fire" an FWB65 can potentially be an instant destruction of the pistol.
.

This is not true. The FWB 65s and 300s can be dry fired. This hs been discussed numerous times and people have posted FWBs response about this in previous threads.

conradin wrote:[


Finally, any attempt to "dry fire" an FWB65 can potentially be an instant destruction of the pistol.
.

This is not true. The FWB 65s and 300s can be dry fired. This hs been discussed numerous times and people have posted FWBs response about this in previous threads.

Gerard wrote:I suppose it might be fascinating... perhaps to a psychology student looking for a research subject. As for the layers, i can smell several of them from here, about 1,000 miles away.

Actually you do know that you are a subject yourself, judging from the private messages you sent me. While my online personality may not correspond with real life, I would not want any children, including mine, come anywhere near you in real life after what you privately told me. Bring this thing off line please. As for self indulgence, also bring this off line, I don't want to embarrass others who have no idea in your business profession to find out the truth. Online personality is one thing, real life is another.

Anonymous wrote:

conradin wrote:[


Finally, any attempt to "dry fire" an FWB65 can potentially be an instant destruction of the pistol.
.

This is not true. The FWB 65s and 300s can be dry fired. This hs been discussed numerous times and people have posted FWBs response about this in previous threads.

I'll leave this to our Mr. FWB65, Rover, to answer that. I own two FWB65, I dismantle and put together one of them. I did work on them. I use blow torch on them. I phoned Sarah if needed. But I do hate to work on them, and I rather let someone else who is much more experienced with the right tool do the work. Buck of Pilkington is one of the best.

Dry fire FWB65 is like playing Russian Roulette except you have 3 bullets instead of 6. Not even using felt cleaning pellets, two or three deep, can be safe. Its the way the cylinder hit the breech directly that causes damage. The spring is hitting at the breech at 88 lbs of force. Sometimes you can tell an FWB65 has been damaged by seeing dent inside the receiver where the chamber is. I also have owned an FWB80. Only FWB90 is safe for dry firing.

Most people on the FWB65 mailing list can testify. Yes, you can dry fire, but for each time you do it, your chance of ruining it is greatly enhanced. I never dried fire mine, and if you really want to take a risk and not use a pellet, try to put as much felt pellet as possible. You can also directly make a phone call to Mr. Beeman and ask for his honest opinion.

I have no comment on FWB300.

For the record, PLEASE at least sign in so I know WHO you are.

FWB says the 65 CAN be dry fired, but what the hell does the manufacturer know.

If you don't like it, you can hold the cocking lever back, pull the trigger, and ease the lever forward. Or you can do like we did in the "Olden Times" and tightly hold your thumb over the muzzle while firing it.

conradin wrote:Actually you do know that you are a subject yourself, judging from the private messages you sent me. Pot Kettle Black.

Really, you don't say. Let's see...

- First PM sent to you on July 25th, as a gesture of caution considering your rather pointedly inappropriate and somewhat outrageous comments in the 'women of air' forum. I was suggesting that it might be better if you were to tone it down a little in your direct attacks on the character of someone you had taken coaching from, and suggestions that you consider avoiding posting in a women's area considering you are, I think, male. Your response? Highly defensive, full of justifications including that your 'daughter' (yours or your partners?) is too young to post about bras for shooting you felt you must... What about the girl's mother, was she unable to post about juvenile undergarments for her daughter? Your response regarding the coaching... full of more justifications for your highly personal and potentially libelous claims.

- Second reply to you, and several more after - I attempted to explain that your claims to have frequently been 'joking' and 'trolling' in the forum were lost on me, as I saw no humour in these postings. Still do not. Also began dialogue regarding our professions; I am a luthier, you have some experience (60 instruments if memory serves - I have worked on thousands) in repairing instruments, and we swapped notes about a few relevant things. Didn't really go far as we have no common ground there... though you tried very hard in several PM's to impress me that you MUST know just about EVERYONE in the musical community. Of course you've never heard of any of my clients, nor I of yours. We work in entirely different areas geographically and professionally. This discrepancy seemed to surprise you, but not me, which was also something I mentioned. It seemed to me that your egomania was somewhat out of control at this point. You also talked at length about your many illnesses and your sexuality. At this point I became somewhat alarmed, told you that this was more information than I had expected and frankly wanted to know about, and tried to change the subject.

You engaged in a long string of dropping of names, mentioning seemingly endless people who are very important, in your world. After my several rebuttals BEGGING you to please stop trying to impress me you said "I THOUGHT you want me to name drop" at which I stated in crystal clear terms that not only did I never suggest any such thing (WHY WOULD ANYONE?), but that I felt the dialogue had no purpose and should stop. You continued talking about 'brain fog' related to your illnesses, your ex motorcycle racing career, and I cannot be bothered remembering what all else. I just stopped answering as it was plain you needed someone to talk to and I was equally plainly not that person, as I have no interest.

I contacted you to caution you against attacking people in public for the ways in which they had harmed your 'shooting career' and also regarding inappropriate comments in the women's forum. Your apparently have no filters, and took this contact point as an excuse to launch an imaginary friendship. Pot? Kettle? Black? I can post the entire contents of our exchange online for all to read if you like, in a nice tidy PDF file... but I thought that was 'private' as in PM. Why do you bring it up now, Conradin? Because you feel offended by my comment, that your need for attention borders on the clinical?

Rover wrote:... you can hold the cocking lever back, pull the trigger, and ease the lever forward.

I'd wondered if the FWB pistols could be de-cocked in this manner, thanks for confirming it Rover. The Webley spring piston pistols certainly can be de-cocked safely in this way, as could my childhood Czech-made break-barrel rifles and any number of other spring-air weapons. Simply disengaging the sear while holding the spring's tension with the cocking lever, whether that's the barrel or a side or bottom lever, then gradually bringing the cocking lever back into place seems rather obvious from a design perspective. Not every pellet loaded into a weapon ought necessarily to be fired and any weapons designer knows this - circumstances change, sometimes we need to unload the gun. But Conradin will no doubt find an argument to justify his position...

Gerard wrote:

conradin wrote:Actually you do know that you are a subject yourself, judging from the private messages you sent me. Pot Kettle Black.

Really, you don't say. Let's see...

- First e clinical?

What part of taking off line do you not understand? Do you honestly want to post the PDF? I will feel EMBARRASSED to post the pdf that you wrote and the BS that you pull. Take it off line and stop attacking me publicly and post sarcastic remark. If you have nothing to contribute, then heed your OWN advice and don't post; just ignore my post if you want. Did I call your name out and offend you?

I did not say ANYTHING about our private correspondence, now you basically wrote them out, some truth, some false. But you insulted me in the email big time, crossing a line that you REALLY should never EVER cross. In some states if you say the same thing you will have a black eye. Maybe you are Canadian, you don't understand certain etiquette.

You ain't no friend of mine, I checked ALL my contact, over 1000 of them, US, Canada, Western and Eastern Europe, Japan, China and nobody even HEARD of you in your profession. Not even a single "I have not heard of him", that's bad. I don't need to prove whether I have genuinely contact at all. Because I know I do. Because of that, I doubt your honesty in real life. Sure you have a nice domain name, but that does not mean the owner is good, well known, well praised, and has a long business.

I have other business interest and stuff that I NEVER mentioned here. What I wrote here in TT is not even HALF of what I do. I don't do that, because I don't see posting here about those facts and opinions would be helpful or bring some understanding to my question. Maybe ONE person would understand where I come from and will give me the RIGHT answer.

I am asking for pdf of old ISSF rules, then someone thought that it was about USAS, then someone local thought that I complained. Then you jumped in made nothing in contribution to my request. You either have the pdf and contribute, or you don't. Don't question my motive. None of your business. If you do, and want to know my motive before giving me the pdf, ask. If you know someone who has one, then ask my motive, and make your decision whether to share it or not.

My relationship with my first teacher has always been a misunderstanding and miscommunications. We don't fit each other's temperament. End of story.

David did take his time to scan, I applaud him, he does not have to do that. For his work I will attempt to reconstruct the entire rulebook, so everyone can benefit if they need to do research.


If I truly went overboard, Scott will warn me, wiped out my post, and then gag me if needed. If after given my voice back I did not change my ways, I am prepared to heed his advice to leave TT.

Do you honestly think that I am PROUD to post over 800 posts over the space of barely more than a year? This is a gun forum, every stupid, long rambling post that is a non factor that was not answered or jeered or called stupid, could be the last thing I would ever posted because I might be six feet under. Not everyone has the benefit of having a coach. Not everyone has a benefit of having a relative to teach. Not everyone has a benefit to live in a society that having a gun means freedom, not death penalty.

Stop smoking your hide glue, its not that good to you anyway. Try fish glue, it suits you more.

Who is attacking whom? Smoking hide glue? Nonsense about my domain's name, my reputation? 'Researching' my reputation among your friends and then claiming that this no doubt exhaustive search in any way establishes anything at all about my work or my reputation in my profession? Please, look at what you're writing before clicking the 'Submit' button and consider what is rational and what ought not to be posted.

You have contributed 794 posts as of this writing, not over 800. Guess you were anticipating the remainder of this day? A couple of members, especially the former member Russ, claimed that I post too often, that I am seeking a high posting count. And yet the post count for Russ stands at 1030... and mine since March of 2011, about two and a half years, remains at a relatively humble 655. Who's the attention whore here? Vince, please calm down and try to post relevancies, not fanciful meanderings and maunderings which contribute nothing to the world of Olympic style sport shooting, which is after all the purpose of this forum.

If I insult you from time to time it is my attempt to slap some sense into you, to get your attention focused on that fact; that this place has NOTHING to do with your personal health issues, your inability or unwillingness to read a simple PDF file which is available for any and all to read, or anything else unrelated to shooting in our sport. I will desist from pointing this out for now in hopes that my point is made. I believe that the spirit of Rover's sometimes insulting (and mercifully brief compared to my long-windedness) comments aimed at you is similar, that is in aid of getting you back on topic. Perhaps these efforts are futile. We shall see.

conradin wrote:

Gerard wrote:

conradin wrote:Actually you do know that you are a subject yourself, judging from the private messages you sent me. Pot Kettle Black.

Really, you don't say. Let's see...

- First e clinical?

What part of taking off line do you not understand? Do you honestly want to post the PDF? I will feel EMBARRASSED to post the pdf that you wrote and the BS that you pull. Take it off line and stop attacking me publicly and post sarcastic remark. If you have nothing to contribute, then heed your OWN advice and don't post; just ignore my post if you want. Did I call your name out and offend you?

I did not say ANYTHING about our private correspondence, now you basically wrote them out, some truth, some false. But you insulted me in the email big time, crossing a line that you REALLY should never EVER cross. In some states if you say the same thing you will have a black eye. Maybe you are Canadian, you don't understand certain etiquette.

You ain't no friend of mine, I checked ALL my contact, over 1000 of them, US, Canada, Western and Eastern Europe, Japan, China and nobody even HEARD of you in your profession. Not even a single "I have not heard of him", that's bad. I don't need to prove whether I have genuinely contact at all. Because I know I do. Because of that, I doubt your honesty in real life. Sure you have a nice domain name, but that does not mean the owner is good, well known, well praised, and has a long business.

I have other business interest and stuff that I NEVER mentioned here. What I wrote here in TT is not even HALF of what I do. I don't do that, because I don't see posting here about those facts and opinions would be helpful or bring some understanding to my question. Maybe ONE person would understand where I come from and will give me the RIGHT answer.

I am asking for pdf of old ISSF rules, then someone thought that it was about USAS, then someone local thought that I complained. Then you jumped in made nothing in contribution to my request. You either have the pdf and contribute, or you don't. Don't question my motive. None of your business. If you do, and want to know my motive before giving me the pdf, ask. If you know someone who has one, then ask my motive, and make your decision whether to share it or not.

My relationship with my first teacher has always been a misunderstanding and miscommunications. We don't fit each other's temperament. End of story.

David did take his time to scan, I applaud him, he does not have to do that. For his work I will attempt to reconstruct the entire rulebook, so everyone can benefit if they need to do research.


If I truly went overboard, Scott will warn me, wiped out my post, and then gag me if needed. If after given my voice back I did not change my ways, I am prepared to heed his advice to leave TT.

Do you honestly think that I am PROUD to post over 800 posts over the space of barely more than a year? This is a gun forum, every stupid, long rambling post that is a non factor that was not answered or jeered or called stupid, could be the last thing I would ever posted because I might be six feet under. Not everyone has the benefit of having a coach. Not everyone has a benefit of having a relative to teach. Not everyone has a benefit to live in a society that having a gun means freedom, not death penalty. The amount of posting, reflects the ignorance level I am in, an ignorance level that most people do not understand or belief, but there are people like me, who has no choice but to get into guns, despite being gun-phobic, anti-gun; etc. I force my way to learn. I owned THREE firearms before I shot my first, and it was not even mine, because I was so scared of them that I sold them all. I purchased them because friends are scared of my safety and insisted that I should acquire one. I have never fired anyone of them. Put yourself on that level, then you know the ignorance level, then you know why I have to post over 800 posts in the space of more than a year, I feel stupid, but I have little choice but to ask. Most of my friends are hard core anti-gun.

So there it is, my LAST long rambling post to you. BTW, you were the one who first mentioned about we had correspondence.

Stop smoking your hide glue, its not that good to you anyway. Try fish glue, it suits you more.

I am genuinely sorry for THIS post. I just want the goddamn pdf.

Rover wrote:If you don't like it, you can hold the cocking lever back, pull the trigger, and ease the lever forward.

Thanks, I shall try that.

Or you can do like we did in the "Olden Times" and tightly hold your thumb over the muzzle while firing it.

Preventing the receiver from totally closed using the thumb and then fire? If you use your thumb to cover the muzzle then the receiver cannot be closed, and the lever cannot be push forward to allow the firing process to proceed.
Would you care enough to explain a bit more before I accidentally "old time" myself to a hospital?

Rover was referring to the well known fact that many officials have tested trigger weights of the FWB pistols by placing a thumb firmly on the muzzle, supposedly preventing the piston from slamming so hard at the end of its stroke. This has been posted a number of times in this and other forums. It was/is especially prevalent at German matches apparently.

Gerard wrote: If I insult you from time to time it is my attempt to slap some sense into you, to get your attention focused on that fact; that this place has NOTHING to do with your personal health issues, your inability or unwillingness to read a simple PDF file which is available for any and all to read, or anything else unrelated to shooting in our sport. I will desist from pointing this out for now in hopes that my point is made. I believe that the spirit of Rover's sometimes insulting (and mercifully brief compared to my long-windedness) comments aimed at you is similar, that is in aid of getting you back on topic. Perhaps these efforts are futile. We shall see.

You don't have Rover's humor, which I can see and learn. That's the difference. Let's just move on from now on.

Gerard wrote:Rover was referring to the well known fact that many officials have tested trigger weights of the FWB pistols by placing a thumb firmly on the muzzle, supposedly preventing the piston from slamming so hard at the end of its stroke. This has been posted a number of times in this and other forums. It was/is especially prevalent at German matches apparently.

it can be difficult (and painful!) digging that pellet out of a thumb or forefinger...

now back home and starting to have time to look though my computer files - my pdf copies of both 3rd and 4th printings for 2001 rules start at section '03 constitution'.
I think the 'missing' sections 01 (cover?) and 02 (index?) were never part of the zipped pdf files.