TargetTalk

conradin wrote:As for WCH being an yearly evenet vs. WCF being an yearly event...I am not sure which is more "important"...

Do you mean "important" or "representative of shooting prowess".

If you were comparing the modern events then I would suggest that the WCH wins on both criteria.

If however you are comparing WCHs from the early twentieth century with WCFs of the modern era then, with the extremely limited number of nations entering, the WCHs are not in the same league.

I don't know much about rifles; but 300M FR and 50M FP has the same target since 1896. Never did change. So you can compare scores. It does not matter how many people show up at the event, what it matters is to find out the average of the top 3 in a particular 300M Prone event and compare it to the scores of today's competitors. Then you have to factor in that the current FR is vastly superior than the FR back then.

man alive Conradin you get a qualified and detailed reply/explanation from one of the top rifle shooters in the world today[Eric] but still you go on.

I respect his opinion, but I am just stating the fact that the targets are the same for the past 116 years. It is much easier to compare that to other discipline. Since we cannot get the past back, putting Sergei on Konrad's gear and have him shoot will be able to find out the true answer.

The lack of field depth also does not justify. By that logic, then the 1980 World Record of Free Pistol should not be counted, especially since Moritz Minder did not attend.

You're on a hiding to nothing trying to say who is the best shooter, or best anything else for that matter. It is too subjective and we all have different opinions based on different 'facts and statistics'. The simple fact is that Sergei is a brilliant prone rifle shooter.

Rob.

conradin wrote:The lack of field depth also does not justify. By that logic, then the 1980 World Record of Free Pistol should not be counted, especially since Moritz Minder did not attend.

I'm sorry but that is absolute rubbish.

A World Record is a score. It doesn't matter whether you have 20 or 200 competitors in a match, the score doesn't change.

World Championships are a totally different matter. If you only have the best shooters from about 20 nations, as in the early twentieth century, then the chances of winning are much higher than they are today.

If you recall the fact I consider Sergei the best of his generation, I just am not convinced he is the best of all time.

David Levene wrote:

conradin wrote:The lack of field depth also does not justify. By that logic, then the 1980 World Record of Free Pistol should not be counted, especially since Moritz Minder did not attend.

I'm sorry but that is absolute rubbish.

A World Record is a score. It doesn't matter whether you have 20 or 200 competitors in a match, the score doesn't change.

World Championships are a totally different matter. If you only have the best shooters from about 20 nations, as in the early twentieth century, then the chances of winning are much higher than they are today.

You actually just agreed on my statement. The 1980 Olympics is lack of depth, most countries boycott is, including the world champion and record holder, Mortiz Minder. He did not show up. The world record was set at that Olympics, probably less than half the field of what we usually have, by a few points. We would never know whether Minder is the greatest, with his 60'MC55.

The only way to compare Sergei and Konrad Staehli is to have Sergei wear Staehli's outfit and use his rifle, which is conveniently displayed in the Swiss Arms Museum, and tried to shoot 300M prone. I have been given a lot of info on this by the curator. Since the target has never been change for the past 116 years, we can answer that question right there, because it is a matter of record attempt. Unfortuantely we don't re-anmimate dead shooters to have them wear Sergei's outfit and use his rifle to try out 50M prone.

Martynov's record of 300FR60PR is 594 (WCH2006, #20), another one is 595 (ECH 2007#14)

Stehaeli is 300FR40PR 360 (WCH 1914 #1)
367 (WCH 1912 #1) WR
355 (WCH 1911 #1) WR
348 (WCH 1909 #1)

So on paper Martynov is better, but they have different rifles, different outfit. Also he finished #20 and #14 only. So there is a field of depth.
Stahaeli has supposedly no field of depth, both 4 WCH and 2 WR.

It is impossible to compare, unless you create a Stahaeli zoombie and give him a modern Bleiker with all the tools he can use, or dress Sergei in a Swiss uniform with nothing but a Swiss army rifle, just the most basic iron sights.

Other than that, Martynov is the best for our generation, and as far as I concern IMHO the best EVER in 50m prone. But 50M prone is not the only dicispline...

conradin wrote:

David Levene wrote:

conradin wrote:The lack of field depth also does not justify. By that logic, then the 1980 World Record of Free Pistol should not be counted, especially since Moritz Minder did not attend.

I'm sorry but that is absolute rubbish.

A World Record is a score. It doesn't matter whether you have 20 or 200 competitors in a match, the score doesn't change.

World Championships are a totally different matter. If you only have the best shooters from about 20 nations, as in the early twentieth century, then the chances of winning are much higher than they are today.

You actually just agreed on my statement. The 1980 Olympics is lack of depth, most countries boycott is, including the world champion and record holder, Mortiz Minder. He did not show up. The world record was set at that Olympics, probably less than half the field of what we usually have, by a few points. We would never know whether Minder is the greatest, with his 60'MC55.

Once again that is absolute rubbish.

A World Record score is not dependant on the number, or ability, of other people in a particular event. It is about achieving the highest score ever in a qualifying event.

First of all I would like to say that this entire conversation is rather silly.Second of all, since when does sergey use
the most modern equipment? Last time I checked he's using 20 year old unmodified rifle with stock sights, old Russian sling, old mouche jacket,etc.... It works for him.

And when commenting on someone at least give him the respect of spelling his name correctly!

Forget it, this thread is out of hand, plus I am actually in the WRONG forum. This should be .22lr. and .177, and I kept arguing about say, Swiss round or NATO round.

I would like to close this thread.