TargetTalk

Attached is all the data I have collected so far; however, to make this information more correct I will need a larger sample group. To do that I would like help from any members who have not shared their results, so please :)

Again with this information I hope to see patterns in what builds an accurate rim fire rifle.

the best part about an Excel file is you can use information to compute thousands of variables. ie Different barrels, actions, barrel length, ammunition... exct.

Enjoy,
Cameron

Correction: I can not upload Excel Files, so if you would like the file send me a PM.
Example photo of the file below.





One Last thing, and be honest please. If you think I am wasting my time let me know, yet if you like what I am doing let me know what I can do to organize and collect this type of information better.
A good example for this type of information would be a consumer rating, they do this for cars, computers, and toasters, why not have one for rifles?

I know the end result will be the barrel and ammunition combination, but its useful to know when to look for better ammunition and when to look into barrel’s and smith work.

Thanks Again Sincerely,
Cameron

It looks like you're trying to use the information you're collecting to make predictive determinations of what the best combinations will be, and to be honest, I think that's a path you're not really going to get value out of.

What you could do with it is to try to find shooters of known high standard and ask for their test results. Then you could use that to find out how many batches they have to test in order to find competitive ones. That way, if you find it impossible to get good ammo for your rifle, while you know these guys are getting a good batch at a ratio of perhaps one to every ten or fifteen tested, it might signify a problem with the rifle. Using it as a predictor of where to start as regards ammo seems like a futile exercise to me though.

Dave IRL wrote:It looks like you're trying to use the information you're collecting to make predictive determinations of what the best combinations will be, and to be honest, I think that's a path you're not really going to get value out of.

But what if there is a best combination?

So far all I can tell you is that there will be a 1-2 mm gain from an Aftermarket barrel over a Factory barrel, not very unexpected but still. I can also prove that over 4 different barrels and 45 Lots of ammunition if your rifle shoots 18mm it is shooting average. (40 shot groups)

Dave IRL wrote: What you could do with it is to try to find shooters of known high standard and ask for their test results. Then you could use that to find out how many batches they have to test in order to find competitive ones. That way, if you find it impossible to get good ammo for your rifle, while you know these guys are getting a good batch at a ratio of perhaps one to every ten or fifteen tested, it might signify a problem with the rifle. Using it as a predictor of where to start as regards ammo seems like a futile exercise to me though.

And the information collected will answer these questions, but to do so you must know:

what is “good ammo for your rifle?” To answer that question good ammo for your rifle will be below 18mm (group of 40) or perhaps it is 17mm. The average will only change as the results grow. And right now it is 18mm

How many batches must you test to find a competitive lot?
What is competitive? 13-14 is rare to my understanding but perhaps 15-16 is more common?

And the same information will be collected for Lapua and 10 shot groups as well. But I still value 40 that are placed on the same X/Y axis over a good 10 shots.

Thedrifter wrote:

Dave IRL wrote:It looks like you're trying to use the information you're collecting to make predictive determinations of what the best combinations will be, and to be honest, I think that's a path you're not really going to get value out of.

But what if there is a best combination?

So far all I can tell you is that there will be a 1-2 mm gain from an Aftermarket barrel over a Factory barrel, not very unexpected but still. I can also prove that over 4 different barrels and 45 Lots of ammunition if your rifle shoots 18mm it is shooting average. (40 shot groups)

Dave IRL wrote: What you could do with it is to try to find shooters of known high standard and ask for their test results. Then you could use that to find out how many batches they have to test in order to find competitive ones. That way, if you find it impossible to get good ammo for your rifle, while you know these guys are getting a good batch at a ratio of perhaps one to every ten or fifteen tested, it might signify a problem with the rifle. Using it as a predictor of where to start as regards ammo seems like a futile exercise to me though.

And the information collected will answer these questions, but to do so you must know:

what is “good ammo for your rifle?” To answer that question good ammo for your rifle will be below 18mm (group of 40) or perhaps it is 17mm. The average will only change as the results grow. And right now it is 18mm

How many batches must you test to find a competitive lot?
What is competitive? 13-14 is rare to my understanding but perhaps 15-16 is more common?

And the same information will be collected for Lapua and 10 shot groups as well. But I still value 40 that are placed on the same X/Y axis over a good 10 shots.

In my opinion, based on over 30 years of shooting smallbore prone and 3-position (including ISU style), you are collecting data that will never get you where you want it to go. In your one sentence, you stated that it all comes down to the barrel / action combination.

Bingo.

Each rifle is as individual on what it likes to eat as people are to what they enjoy. There is no prediction of barrel / action / ammo combination that is the superior combination.

As for comparison of factory vs aftermarket barrels, there are many variables there also. Was it a "select" factory barrel that was given to a national team member? If that is the case, then it will be as good as or even better than many aftermarket barrels. In addition, there is no correction for the number of rounds down the tube to compensate for wear. My aftermarket barrel at 180-200k rounds was still as good if not better than 95% of barrels on the line it was competing against. The best factory barrel I know right now is on a 2000 series Anschutz and it is showing no signs of deterioration for that shooter after several seasons of shooting with multiple cases of Tenex.

To further complicate the issue, every shooter has a different expectation for accuracy and what "accurate" ammo really is. For my expectations, it will be vastly different than my daughter who just recently started shooting. Can I use 18mm ammo and win? Nope. Can she use 18mm ammo and win (for her classification and age group)? Probably. So that kills the one size fits all theory of accuracy. Do we all want that dream 11 or 12 mm group? Yes...but as stated by multiple people before....each rifle and ammo combination is different. As for what is considered competitive - that is simply based on the type of competition (target) and the shooter's ability.

The number of variables being compared between different rifles / ammo / setup / conditions etc. are staggering and precludes any cross-evaluation for assumption purposes.

Time would be better spent on the range training and working on shot execution.

Just my honest opinion.
Regards
ken

Thedrifter wrote:But what if there is a best combination?

If there were, given the extent to which research, planning, testing and development have been a part of the sport, not only would it have been found by now, it would be universal. The fact that this hasn't happened would strongly suggest that it's not that simple.

So far all I can tell you is that there will be a 1-2 mm gain from an Aftermarket barrel over a Factory barrel, not very unexpected but still. I can also prove that over 4 different barrels and 45 Lots of ammunition if your rifle shoots 18mm it is shooting average. (40 shot groups)

You've really not got enough there to even tentatively suggest that. My factory-selected Anschutz has, in consecutive tests, consistently grouped around 13-13.5mm for ten shots at a time. Having been tested with Lapua, there's no consolidated forty shot group, but I don't think the authority of such a measure has been sufficiently demonstrated either, since, as I said earlier, shooters will put on a click or two here and there throughout a match often enough that the overall measurement of a forty shot group without any sight changes seems of questionable relevance, whereas a given ten shots being tight and nicely formed seems far more useful. Now, if it were in the form of an electronic printout giving the value and direction of forty consecutive shots, along with the group sizes for each ten, as well as the overall forty, that would be useful, but quite possibly no moreso than the individual ten shot groups. I'm not sure it would be possible to make an objective determination of that value.

And the information collected will answer these questions, but to do so you must know:

what is “good ammo for your rifle?” To answer that question good ammo for your rifle will be below 18mm (group of 40) or perhaps it is 17mm. The average will only change as the results grow. And right now it is 18mm

How many batches must you test to find a competitive lot?
What is competitive? 13-14 is rare to my understanding but perhaps 15-16 is more common?

And the same information will be collected for Lapua and 10 shot groups as well. But I still value 40 that are placed on the same X/Y axis over a good 10 shots.

Competitive is going to depend on what level you plan on shooting at. If you're shooting local matches only, it's probably not terribly hard to find something that won't hold you back. If, on the other hand, you're shooting in ISSF world cups and similar matches, particularly on the new system of decimal scoring, then competitive is a different story, and probably going to require a gun that shoots around 12mm for ten shots at a time, consistently. Good ammo "for your rifle" is a bit of a red herring, since you're trying to figure out what's the best you can get out of your rifle, which means you're disregarding the question of whether the rifle itself is good enough to be competitive, the central issue. To answer that, you'd need to know what it takes to be competitive at the level of competition in question.